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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 7:34:02 GMT
I forgot about the flex text when I mentioned his review. Excellent customer service on Garrett's part but Swordsage should have known better. I don't even flex test my machetes and those things are made to flex (to an extent). Gods know I used to abuse the heck out of them with use when I lived in North FL. Anyway, Jin-Shi makes good blades and we need to help Garrett promote his product. Down with Wushu Steel buy a Jin-Shi! 100% agreed. My jian is also 1095 carbon. Those swords from hanwei that I have been researching have 1566 steel. ) Since 1952, Alloy Digest has been the leading reference for materials property data on metals and alloys used throughout the world. Featuring graphs, charts and tables, these sheets give facts and figures on composition or characterization, physical and mechanical properties, heat treatment, and machinability. AISI 1566 is a high-carbon (nominally 0.66% carbon) steel containing 0.85-0.15% manganese. Its hardenability is low and on austenitizing and liquid quenching it develops a hard (martensitic) surface with a soft, ductile core. It can be used in the hot-rolled, annealed, normalized, cold-worked or liquid-quenched-and-tempered condition for a wide range of applications. It has good machinability and good workability. Its many uses include springs, shafts, hand tools, railway parts and agricultural machinery. Keywords: Metals and Metal Alloys, Ferrous alloy, Steel, Carbon steel, High-manganese. this is from www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/detail?product_id=875723I am not too cool with the alloy. while it is great for certain tools, I am not sure I want it in a sword. I worked in a steel mill a few years back. We only used Mn for flow ability. Mn is a softer metal. iron plus carbon (proper amount) = steel. Even katana made old style used iron melted with charcoal to gain carbon content. If the mixture wasn't just right, then it wasn't any good. Taking what swordsage stated about 1095 carbon and what bloodwraith stated about proped tempering process, I think Garrett Chan's Jin-Shi swords are the way to go for Chinese swords. I have had mine for a couple of months, cut bottles and tatami. The tang is full and pinned. Hanwei recommends no tatami cuts w/ theirs. Even the Qi Jian. Also the HRC rating is different. The Jin-Shi is 57, while the Hanwei is 48-53. That is a lot of difference in hardness. I do realize, however, that the hardness is traded off for flexibility in the case of Hanwei. As I stated earlier... I am fairly knowledgeable in many areas when it comes to martial arts and swords, and metals. That is why before I make a buy, I do my homework. Man, I bugged the heck out of poor old Garrett before I bought this sword. Even the swords that I purchase from other sites, I write to the maker and get stats before I buy from the dealers. If we all did this, the companies making junk SLO's would soon be out of business. That is why I like this forum... All of you that have knowledge try to help the guys who don't so that they don't get a bad deal somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 7:35:53 GMT
P.S. if it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't have known about Jin-Shi. Thanks everybody. Especially you LPBoyle, for steering me to that website.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 7:50:35 GMT
I am pretty sure I said this but it never hurts to say something once, twice (or a million times) it doesn't really matter whether the steel is 1045, 1095, L6, XK****S (can never remember the designation properly) it is about the smith and whether he knows what he is doing and how the metals react and whatnot. I'd rather buy Jin Shi than Hanwei in this case, not because of the metal, or any of that bull, but because Garrett and I have talked quite a bit in the past and we both share the same passion for chinese weapons and that ultimately is what is more important to me, a passionate person will always give a better product because they are involved in the art themselves. Not saying hanwei isn't passionate but they are impersonal, I don't know Mr Chen, I am sure he is a brilliant man but as I said Garrett and I have had contact over the years, from the very beginning when this was still just a mad scheme in his mind. One day I hope to have a custom made by him, but that will have to wait for now, I am having too much fun getting my own designs custom made.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 12:20:01 GMT
Now, I just need to get the $$$ together and get my own Jin-Shi then maybe I can stop doing the 13 saber form with a machete (or that cheap arse wooden broadsword I reviewed a while back) my own philosophy is that any weapon I have in my house has to be usable if it is called for. So I've never considered those wushu weapons as such. It's my hope that we can help promote Garrett's product to the point he can get back into full production again. I've made my emails to various folks trying to get something going for him. Now we just have to wait and see what the future holds.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2009 3:09:45 GMT
Again I have to agree 100% that heat treating is the deciding factor. I just have personal reservations about the 1566. what made me decide not to go PC was that they dont have the pinned tang, and the HRC is not as hard. I think those two character istics may have something to do w/ the recommendation not to perform cutting exercises.
Garrett jians had a harder HRC rating and pinned tang. If I am going to cut mats, I want both of those factors fulfilled.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2009 10:00:40 GMT
Just because HRC is higher on a weapon or has a higher carbon content or whatever does not make it a better weapon. A higher HRC makes it more likely that the edge will be brittle (this is not true of katana though because of the techniques used). When you have a higher HRC you generally trade off some of the the elasticity of the metal. I'm quite happy with sword edges that are around 55-57 HRC. As to a handle being pinned, it depends how they pin them, if they don't do it properly it can be catastrophic.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 1:53:59 GMT
While I agree with the metallurgical and assembly information that you are providing, again I remind you that we are discussing a particular sword that is well built and I have personally found to be quite well made. As pointed out by others here and in other forum posts, Garrett sells good stuff. The handle assembly is A+, as well. While I have made quite a few knives, I have only made two swords. I had to outsource my heat treatment on the swords tho. They have stood up well, the last I heard (been a couple of years) and that was after they were a few years sold. I personally find the sword I bought from Garrett to be the second best jian that I have had my hands on, and the best that I have owned. The best I saw was my teacher's. But that was quite an expensive gift from one of his teachers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 3:11:10 GMT
Just because HRC is higher on a weapon or has a higher carbon content or whatever does not make it a better weapon. A higher HRC makes it more likely that the edge will be brittle (this is not true of katana though because of the techniques used). When you have a higher HRC you generally trade off some of the the elasticity of the metal. I'm quite happy with sword edges that are around 55-57 HRC. As to a handle being pinned, it depends how they pin them, if they don't do it properly it can be catastrophic. such a broad, sweeping statement, such as "this is not true concerning katana" is a total misnomer. While you made some very informed statements concerning sword manufacturing, you forgotten your own statement regarding the smith. Even a katana, however great people have built in their mind to be the greatest sword ever made ( not necessarily fact, but to katana fans assumed to be ), is as only as good as the smith that forges it. If you study the reason that PC uses 1566 steel, and the capabilities of that steel, you will see that, when properly heat treated, and tempered, its martensite quality along the outside is great, while the inner core remains more ductile, and flexible. Wow, that is what the differential tempering process achieves, making the katana so good. A harder edge, with a softer, more flexible spine, allowing for better cuts, without as much risk of snapping a blade... the katana. As I told you before, I am not untrained, nor unlearned. I believe in knowing that I will never be exhaustive in knowledge, and believe in being humble, but I do not believe in someone expecting me to be, while they are not. A true martial artist knows that he will always be learning. I am very selective about who I will allow to teach me, however. After my teacher passed away... I wanted to learn more., but he was no longer here. My wife and I went to a local kung fu studio. When inside, we spoke to the master/ teacher. He appeared to be learned in the arts, yet when he demonstrated his forms, I nodded and thanked him for the demonstration. I told him that I would get back to him later, that I had another appointment to keep. My wife asked me in the car, " would you let him teach you? I think that your style and forms are so much better." My answer to her was, "Of course not. But that was no need to tell him that." Bloodwraith, this is now the third time that I have asked you what I am asking you. The first time you told me that it was not your intent, and apologized, but you still do it. Please do not insult my intelligence. I would first like to apologize to you if I have led you into thinking that I wasn't learned, because of my typing. I don't type well. Second I apologize, if I have misled you by being humble. Humility is not stupidity, just as not fighting is not always weakness. The advertisement at the beginning of this forum states that this sis the friendliest forum. We wont bite your head off, if you ask a question. If you represent this forum directly, then you need to reword that to read, only if you make a statement. I do not discount your knowledge, and I only ask that you show the same respect.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 4:07:48 GMT
I have no idea what you are reading into my posts mate, this is a discussion (or so I was led to believe?). You threw it open to a wider topic and I responded in kind. My post was not aimed at you nor was it personal nor did I bring into question any level of training you may or may not have had. My post was in regards to the idea that some hold erronerously (not necessarily you) that harder is better. I wanted to put that to bed. I also don't think the katana is a "super weapon" or any of that guff, my point was that because the techniques involved in making a differentially hardened katana they can generally have a harder edge than swords not made in this way, that was the extent of my point.
I never called into question your training, you seem to have read into my comments as being personally aimed at you. My comment about the untrained eye was a general comment because not everyone who attends these forums has chinese martial arts training. Fine, I get it you are trained and that is fine and good to know but my statements about being untrained were not aimed at you. Also training in a martial art does not equate to knowing about the specifics of the weapons being used. I am not sure why you have chosen to take my posts so personally? I didn't expect you to be trained, it wasn't a factor in my comments. My comments are generally aimed at the wide plethora of training and background and lack thereof of people who come to these forums. I think it is important that misinformation does not spread and that is what I seek to do. My posts are never personal in the understanding of wanting to impart offence. I never bit off anyone's head for asking a question and where is it that I have actually said that I don't respect your knowledge?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 4:19:24 GMT
Humble apologies if I misread you. As I told you earlier I agree about a lot of what you are sying in misconceptions of the forging process. The Hardest sword that I have seen on line is one cert at HRC 60 edge and 48 spine katana. My comments of steel types are simply a personal preference. The alloy of 1566 as shown above has its uses. But I prefer 1095 carbon myself. There is some posts on andother thread asking why PC recommends no cutting w/ his Chinese swords. I believe that it is the HRC values and that his tang is only threaded, not pinned. This would bring up safety and warranty issues. But that is just a hypothesis.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 4:24:53 GMT
The difficulty with a comment like that is that when the tang is properly threaded (ala Gus Trim) it is just as good as (if not better especially in terms of maintenance) a peened tang.
I'm a little confused, by pinned tang do you mean peened or are you talking about the handle being pinned to the tang?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2009 4:50:55 GMT
The difficulty with a comment like that is that when the tang is properly threaded (ala Gus Trim) it is just as good as (if not better especially in terms of maintenance) a peened tang. I'm a little confused, by pinned tang do you mean peened or are you talking about the handle being pinned to the tang? pinned... I believe the right term when speaking on Japanese swords is mekugi. This jian has a bamboo pin thru the handle/ tang. I have a PC Agincourt that is peened. It appears to be well done. But I have only put it to one serious striking test. I like the looks and dont want to effect it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 18:45:37 GMT
Yeah, it wouldn't hurt CS to put a disclaimer on there vids. As for flubbed tatami cuts.... never should anyone without experience cut without a trainer present. My brother was trying a cut for the first time... and got hard headed... in mid cut left form and swung like a baseball bat. I had to reach out with my sword to block him from cutting his leg on a poor follow through and nicked the edges of both blades. He has been grounded from any functional sword use for the last 3 months. all he gets to do is clean and display. When he gets a more obedient in Kung Fu class, he might be allowed to try again... meanwhile he has been reduced to a wushu blunt... oh the anguish... he feels so belittled. He knows how we feel about wushu blades. He is trying real hard to regain his honor to be able to cut again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2009 21:31:30 GMT
I forgot about the flex text when I mentioned his review. Excellent customer service on Garrett's part but Swordsage should have known better. I don't even flex test my machetes and those things are made to flex (to an extent). Gods know I used to abuse the heck out of them with use when I lived in North FL. Anyway, Jin-Shi makes good blades and we need to help Garrett promote his product. Down with Wushu Steel buy a Jin-Shi! 100% agreed. My jian is also 1095 carbon. Those swords from hanwei that I have been researching have 1566 steel. ) Since 1952, Alloy Digest has been the leading reference for materials property data on metals and alloys used throughout the world. Featuring graphs, charts and tables, these sheets give facts and figures on composition or characterization, physical and mechanical properties, heat treatment, and machinability. AISI 1566 is a high-carbon (nominally 0.66% carbon) steel containing 0.85-0.15% manganese. Its hardenability is low and on austenitizing and liquid quenching it develops a hard (martensitic) surface with a soft, ductile core. It can be used in the hot-rolled, annealed, normalized, cold-worked or liquid-quenched-and-tempered condition for a wide range of applications. It has good machinability and good workability. Its many uses include springs, shafts, hand tools, railway parts and agricultural machinery. Keywords: Metals and Metal Alloys, Ferrous alloy, Steel, Carbon steel, High-manganese. this is from www.techstreet.com/cgi-bin/detail?product_id=875723I am not too cool with the alloy. while it is great for certain tools, I am not sure I want it in a sword. I worked in a steel mill a few years back. We only used Mn for flow ability. Mn is a softer metal. iron plus carbon (proper amount) = steel. Even katana made old style used iron melted with charcoal to gain carbon content. If the mixture wasn't just right, then it wasn't any good. Taking what swordsage stated about 1095 carbon and what bloodwraith stated about proped tempering process, I think Garrett Chan's Jin-Shi swords are the way to go for Chinese swords. I have had mine for a couple of months, cut bottles and tatami. The tang is full and pinned. Hanwei recommends no tatami cuts w/ theirs. Even the Qi Jian. Also the HRC rating is different. The Jin-Shi is 57, while the Hanwei is 48-53. That is a lot of difference in hardness. I do realize, however, that the hardness is traded off for flexibility in the case of Hanwei. As I stated earlier... I am fairly knowledgeable in many areas when it comes to martial arts and swords, and metals. That is why before I make a buy, I do my homework. Man, I bugged the heck out of poor old Garrett before I bought this sword. Even the swords that I purchase from other sites, I write to the maker and get stats before I buy from the dealers. If we all did this, the companies making junk SLO's would soon be out of business. That is why I like this forum... All of you that have knowledge try to help the guys who don't so that they don't get a bad deal somewhere. OK, I have to repost on this... a misprint, regarding Hanwei. The steel is 1560, not 1566. also, as Bloodwraith has pointed out, the steel is not as important as the smithing. NOW FOR THE FUN PART...Tinker Pearce designed bastard sword blade that I used to make my hybrid jian from has made me eat my words regarding the 1560 steel, again, smithing being keynote. The marquenching heat treatment process, apparently is outstanding. the blade is sturdy, as well as flexible, in the right amount. Bravo Tinker, karma to you, dude.
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