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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 15:41:29 GMT
Hey guys, well as some of you might know i am getting a fantasy windlass blade which i fell in love with but i have caught the sword bug and am now looking at what else i might be able to pick up. So far several gen2 swords have caught my eye. Their falcata, excalibur, 12th century and their scottish single hander. Which of these would you consider most beginner friendly? and do gen2 do a broadsword of any description? Or any of the oakeshott blades? Thankyou in advance
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 18:12:00 GMT
Frankly, I believe that even if you are a billioner, you should not begin from the very best sword just because its best and top durable etc. I Think you should begin from the most simple sword money can buy, learn how to handle a sword and how to take care of it properly, then advance to a more advanced sword. That said, I Believe best beginner swords are the monosteel 1060/1045 of Cheness which can be found on either SBG Store, www.chenessinc.com OR www.sukottoinc.com [the sukotto line is actually cheness blade 1045 with their off-the-shelf fittings] Or if you are more into medival-like swords [although not historically correct] then Gen2 is your best choice.... most of them are very sturdy, very tough and durable.... Good luck, -W.H.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 8, 2007 18:33:31 GMT
Agreed. you'll lose a lot of appreciation for swords if you start with only top tier designs. I've noticed that a lot of attention to detail is developed slowly through gradual immersion and experience of blades. Several people that I've heard of own top tier angus trims, but have no attatchment or recognition to them - so much that their friends can swap hilts and pommels withut their noticing.
Basically, if you can't aprpeciate (not lik,e necessarily, but at least notice) every aspect as your weapon, then you are missing out.
Now about oakshott....I'd tell you that the type XII is a very versitile design, but I'm sure others would argue the type X or possibly type XIX...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 23:21:49 GMT
Type XII is a great all around sword, good cutter, decent thruster... it comes in both single-hand and two handed varieties, and has it's fair share of variations(for example a flattened diamond cross section instead of lenticular for a blade with slightly better thrusting potential). I'd stay away from a Type X for your first sword. They're very dedicated cutters and balance appropriately, which, if you're anything like me, can hurt your opinion of how 'good' medieval swords balanced if you don't know what to expect. They're not lively in the hand or suited to finer blade work. Same applies for the type XI, which as I recall is primarily a cavalry type sword, designed for powerful sweeping cuts.
A Type XIX is not quite as good a cutter, but only nominally behind things like the XI or XII. It does thrust better than both.
A type XV would be one of your best bets for medieval single-handed thrusting. The deeply tapering blade form can cause some gaping thrusting wounds, though it won't enter a target quite so well as a rapier.
Then of course is your nice type XVIII. These swords are excellent cutters and excellent thrusters, and they handle very well and are very light due to their hollow grinding. They're not as durable though for the same reason.
All that being said, your best bet for beginning blades is a Type XII i believe. It's an all around blade that doesn't do anything badly. Many starter models can be found through Windlass. Of course, the higher end albion Laird(which shares a blade with their Caithness and their Knight) is stated as being one of the most wonderfully well balanced swords in existence.
The albion squire line knightly sword shares a blade with those, but to make it cheaper it's not as well polished, and the hilts are of more economic fittings. This would be a good sword to buy after several of our good 'sub $300' models. It used to be $350 i believe, which is outstanding for an albion. Now it's over $400, but still a great value i'd say.
Anyway, to sum up: Get a good all around sword for your first. Something that you can try out various styles on to figure out if you're primarily a thruster, or a cutter, or a cut'n'thruster. If the latter, figure out if you lean more towards cutting or thrusting. Then go from there.
Dedicated Cutter: Types X, XI, XIII
Cut'n'Thruster, leaning towards cuts: Types XII, XVIII
Cut'n'Thruster, even between both: Types XII, XIX, XVIII, XVI,
Cut'n'Thruster, leaning towards thrusts: Types XVI, XIX, XVIII
Dedicated Thruster: Type XV, Rapier
This is, of course, merely a very generalized overview of the different types. Just so you know.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Apr 8, 2007 23:40:22 GMT
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Post by rammstein on Apr 9, 2007 0:00:52 GMT
hm...I would go so far as to say the type X (NOT Xa) would make an ok thruster, if only because of its profile taper. This sword is less of a cavalry weapon than an infamtryman's.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 0:01:59 GMT
Actually I prefer newstirlingarms wasters, newstirlingarms.com/about.html. They handle far better than any other wooden waster I've used, without sacrificing durability. I've beaten mine on a solid pell and a tire pell hundreds upon hundreds of times, not to mention other wooden swords. They hold up fine, though I did snap one once(it was an inherent problem with that particular piece to be sure). One I have has developed some minor(very very minor) loosening of the pommel, and another has an even more minor slight wobble in the cross. And like I said, I'm HARD on my swords. they do good.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 9, 2007 0:45:03 GMT
another thing: Several type sutypes (the XVIIIb and the XVIIId for example) were AMAZING thrusters, just as effective and arguably moreso than the type XV and XVa! Also, NONE of the swords metioned above should be regarded in anyway as poor cutters. Tests done with the albion Talhoffer (type XVa) clearly showed no cutting deficiency. And the Regent and Earl (XVIIIbs) have also been proven to be mean cutters in their own right, too!
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Apr 9, 2007 1:33:58 GMT
Your page didn't work Adam. www.newstirlingarms.comA lot of wooden wasters are dead in the hands but New stirling feel lively like a real sword. I have two of them a long sword and a cut and thrust. Jim who makes them does not recommend using them on pells.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 4:13:01 GMT
That's right he doesn't. Wooden swords aren't meant to hit pells like that. But he makes 'em so they can take it. After the pommel on one loosened a bit(not really all that bad) I've only used them on a tire, which is squishy enough that it doesn't hurt the sword any more it would for a sparring match.
As for the type X being a good thruster... I don't know... they have rounded or spatulate tips and a thin cross-section which would make thrusting into anything but bare soft flesh a difficult ordeal.
And you're right, all those swords can cut well. But it's quite a fact that some were made far more for thrusting than others, and usually the more thrust oriented, the more something else suffers(be it durability, like the hollow ground type XVIII, or cutting potential, as in the type XV). There is no perfect sword that does everything best. There are a number of really really excellent compromises though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 4:47:09 GMT
The first sword I owned was a Windlass Medieval Short Sword (also sold by FactoryX as the Sword of Dracula), which was reviewed here: www.myarmoury.com/review_mrl_medshort.html. For the first couple months I had it, it was in it's original blunt form, but then I had it sharpened and started cutting with it. I think the time I spent with it while it was blunt was very valuable, as it gave me a chance to handle it and swing it around without real fear of injury (though the point was very sharp even then). Knowing that the sword isn't going to cut you is a big psychological boost when you're first starting out for this very reason. TO be honest, the first time I handled it sharp, it was quite intimidating, and I realized that my formerly (relatively)harmless sword was now perfectly capable of severing a human limb or head with relatively minimal force. It's sort of like starting someone out in the shooting sports, you don't hand them a .44 Magnum revolver or .338 Win Mag rifle (which would be almost guaranteed to scare the *#&% out of them and turn them off to shooting forever), you start them off with a .22 pistol or rifle and let them get used to simply handling guns in a safe and effective manner. The point is, that a blunt gives you an excellent chance to just hold, swing, and generally get a feel for a sword without much risk. When you're just getting used to handling a sword, it doesn't always do or go exactly what or where you think it should, and the results with a sharp could be extremely painful or even fatal. Wasters are cool, and I certainly wouldn't try to talk you our of getting one, but I'd also suggest something in real steel for the best feel (hey, that rhymed), either a WIndlass sword of some type (which come blunt [unless ordered sharp] but can be sharpened down the raod) or a Gen2 blunt like the Norman stage sword (which I'm guessing wouldn't really be amenable to sharpening, but would be the toughest and most realistic practice sword in our price range). Actually, since you mentioned longswords, this www.imperialweapons.com/swords/Gen2/IP-110.html might be an excellent way to go, too. BTW, In the interest of all current and future members' safety, my comments about blunt steel swords being relatively harmless only apply when you are using the sword in a responsible way by yourself (or in a controlled environment with a properly trained and armored opponent, under supervision). It is entirely possible to inflict disfiguring, crippling, and fatal injuries on another person using a blunt steel sword, so please, everybody, keep that in mind, and behave accordingly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 7:02:41 GMT
Thanks for the replies guys, i am buying a non sharpened windlass heron mark which i think i've said already, i am looking for a live steel blade, i prefer ones that aren't sharpened because safety first and not particularly into wasters because i want steel not wood. I am a little hesitant to buy a gen2 because i am not really into cutting i just want something that will stand the test of times, i would do kata with it and i have never done western martial arts so i don't want sharp swords yet.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 7:18:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2007 14:20:22 GMT
Has anyone come across the valiant armory swords? If so how would you rate them? They have some swords i really like the looks of.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 9, 2007 22:01:17 GMT
from what I hear of valiant...stay far away...
Their swords are more long knives and it seems like the manufacturers have little grasp on both historical accuracy and the principle functions of a sword. This is going to change though as they just got a new owner who is taking myarmoury's sugestions to heart, so expect much better products. But their swords now are nothing short of flawed.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 9, 2007 22:03:07 GMT
yes, but distal taper is just as important as profile taper, the latter the type X certainly does have. While it obviously won't thrust as well as a type XVa, it should do better than the types Xa, XI, or XIII.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2007 0:02:06 GMT
I'm not sure of the context of your above post. So let me just say, that the thinner a sword is, the less rigid it is, which generally decreases the thrusting potential. Proper geometry of distal and profile taper help compensate for this, but can only do so to a degree.
Remember, the distal taper on a type X sword is to make it nice and thin near the tip so it can cut well while simultaneously having a bit more cross sectional width near the cross for strength. it probably thrusts just as poorly as the Xa, XI, or XIII.
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Post by rammstein on Apr 10, 2007 1:04:44 GMT
interesting! Karma for you for correcting that
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 10, 2007 1:24:41 GMT
from what I hear of valiant...stay far away... Their swords are more long knives and it seems like the manufacturers have little grasp on both historical accuracy and the principle functions of a sword. This is going to change though as they just got a new owner who is taking myarmoury's sugestions to heart, so expect much better products. But their swords now are nothing short of flawed. Rammstein, From what I've seen and heard you are right about Valiant swords, for the most part. However, they have made at least a few good sword designs. Remember that Tsafa's favorite sword is a Valiant Armory Type XIV that he has posed with in several pictures here and on his website. He says it's built like a tank and is darn near indestructible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2007 1:41:22 GMT
Thanks for the replies guys, i am buying a non sharpened windlass heron mark which i think i've said already, i am looking for a live steel blade, i prefer ones that aren't sharpened because safety first and not particularly into wasters because i want steel not wood. I am a little hesitant to buy a gen2 because i am not really into cutting i just want something that will stand the test of times, i would do kata with it and i have never done western martial arts so i don't want sharp swords yet. If you're into unsharpened swords and don't prefer Gen 2 then Windlass is your best bet since all their swords are unsharpened. Be warned though. Some of their swords are still a little ify in terms of their hilt structure coming loose.
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