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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 1:19:07 GMT
Hey guys,
i am still new to all these sword jargon words and i was wondering if anyone can explain them? The three words is particular that i am having issues with are peening, tapping and threading. I don't understand the concepts.
TIA
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 1:30:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 2:28:33 GMT
Thanks for the link mug but it didn't really answer any of my questions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 3:19:44 GMT
With regard to sword hilts, peening is when you leave a small amount of the blade tang sticking out above the pommel and you hammer it down so that it mushrooms out to a larger diameter than the hole in the pommel, and it holds the hilt together. Tapping and threading are ways of creating threads. Tapping is where you drill a hole in a piece of metal and then cut threads inside the hole with a tap, which is like a drill bit with threads cut into it. Threading is the opposite. This is where you take a piece of metal [like a steel rod] and cut threads on the outside of it. In other words, when you look at a nut and a bolt, the nut has been tapped (threads inside) and the bolt has been threaded (threads on the outside). A peened hilt. You can see how the end of the tang is flattened over the top of the pommel: A threaded hilt. The pommel has been tapped, and the end of the tang has been threaded, so the pommel will screw onto the tang:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 4:40:56 GMT
Kriegschwert: wow, now that is what i call detailed and the pictures really help. So would i be right in thinking that a threaded hilt would hold a sword together very well but wouldn't be a very good weapon for cutting with? Whereas a peened hilt would stand up very well to even the most rigourous workouts? Would that also mean that you could take a threaded hilt sword apart for cleaning relatively easy and put it back together again just like new?
If you could tell me, why would you thread a hilt rather than peening it?
Oh and also kriegschwert what sword is in your avatar?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 19:22:27 GMT
Just to jump in here on Kreig's very nice explanation, which, by the way I throw my vote for a sticky at the top somewhere.
Now for my .02, how I understand it, a peened hilt is usually the best, however a threaded hilt, if done properly and is not an add on piece that is welded to the tang should give no problems. I only own one sword to date that has a threaded pommel, and so far it has give me no troubles, however Shootermike has the same sword and he experienced a bending of the threaded portion of the tang. Now as I understand it, the only real reason a manufacturer would thread a tang rather than peen it is to save money on the build cost of the sword. I could be wrong here, and please Krieg, correct me if I'm in error on that. As far as ease of disassembly, the Side Sword I have I did attempt to unthread the pommel, and I couldn't budge it even with a cloth wrapped pipe wrench. Some may come apart easier.
-John
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 20:05:47 GMT
It's important to note that it's not only a money thing but a skill and time thing. it is both more difficult and time consuming to properly peen a pommel than to thread one.
It is also important to note that there are 2 types of threaded assemblies: A screw on pommel and a screw on pommel-nut. The latter is actually two pieces, one of which is the pommel, the other is more or less a stylized nut that serves the same purpose as peening, that is holding the pommel tightly to the tang and adding that tightened pressure to the hilt assembly. A screw on pommel, like on the hanwei sidesword or the cold steel hand and a half, is not as good.
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Post by ShooterMike on Apr 7, 2007 21:09:51 GMT
Just to add a bit to Kriegschwert's excellent drawings, here is a picture showing the other three types of threaded tangs. L to R: Windlass threaded tang with ball pommel and pommel nut (shown on the tang); Angus Trim threaded tang with "keyed" pommel and tubular pommel nut; Hanwei tang with welded-on threaded rod and tapped pommel.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 1:27:11 GMT
Well the sword i am getting is a windlass and everything i have read talks about just how good their swords are. So as long as the blade with the threaded pommel isn't used for any sort of contact it should be ok for performing sword forms with?
Shootermike, this might be a silly question but do you use these swords rigorously in contact drills or abuse? If so, how do they stand up? I was a little worried about the threaded tang thing but not so much anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 1:48:00 GMT
Like I think it's already been said, if the pommel is threaded properly, you should have no problems with the sword. I was worried about my Gen 2 Celtic sword because it was threaded but Clyde( yes THE Clyde Hollis of Generation 2 Swords ;D) assured me that it would give me no problems and I haven't as of now. With that note, I think you would be fine with Gen 2 swords if they were threaded, but I'm not sure how well Windlass does their threaded pommels. -Tim
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2007 3:28:39 GMT
Hmmm...to thread, or not to thread? ;D Having a threaded assembly (be it a tang nut or a threaded pommel) doesn't necessarily make a sword unsuitable for heavy use. It really depends on how it's done. Angus Trim's swords (the middle one in Mike's photo) use a threaded assembly in which the threaded portion of tang is integral with the tang itself (no welds), and the tang nut is long so as to give good, solid contact between the nut and the tang. Mr. Trim's swords are unquestionably among the toughest swords ever made, and I wouldn't hesitate to subject one to all sorts of abuse without any fear whatsoever. Windlass swords are pretty good. The ones with just a small threaded nut (like the far left one in Mike's photo) don't offer a whole lot of engagement area between nut and tang, but they at least use a hefty 5/16" threaded area that is also integral with the rest of the tang. They aren't bad and should stand up pretty well to normal backyard cutting use. Other Windlass swords use a threaded pommel, which offers more threaded surface area (better strength) and, I believe, the same beefy 5/16" threads as the "nut" type swords, so these should be even a bit tougher in that respect. The trouble with both methods, however, is that they loosen up with use and require regular retightening (this isn't a problem with Trim swords, I think because of the better component fit and they way the nut tends to wedge itself down into the pommel). The other thing is that most Windlass swords have a pretty loose fit between their tangs and related hardware (crossguards, grips, etc), which, even without a loose nut or pommel, puts a lot of stress on the hilt during use. Fortunately, these things are easy to remedy. A bit of quick dry epoxy in the cross and a bit of epoxy or JB Weld (or any other "cold weld" compound) in the grip and you're almost ready to go. Finally, thoroughly clean the threads on the tang and pommel or nut, and then add a bit of medium strength thread locking compound (Loc-Tite, for example) to them and snug the whole thing down. I actually prefer threaded tangs on Windlass swords for just this reason. Many of their peened swords have the same loose hilt components, but you can't really do anything about them without grinding off the end of the tang and repeening when you're finished adding your epoxy and stuff. Gen2 uses a method of hilt assembly in which they epoxy the components to the tang before they peen the whole deal together (plus, their components fit the tang much tighter than Windlass to begin with), which eliminates movement and looseness in the hilt and helps distribute stresses more evenly throughout the hilt, instead of focusing them on particular areas, like the blade shoulders, etc. Still, I think Windlass swords (the threaded tang type) make fantastic platforms from which to create some really great swords. If you're willing to put a bit of time and work into fixing up the fit of the hilt components, they can be a lot of fun to work on and experiment with too. And they make damn good blades. While some of them are overly flexible (this is only a problem with some of their swords that are intedend to thrust as well as they cut), they are evenly tempered and tougher than heck. Btw, my avatar is a Gen2 12th Century dagger (sweet, sweet blade ). Here it is "in hand":
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