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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2009 20:20:00 GMT
By underhanded, I dont necessarily mean sneaky or devious. I mean the style with the blade pointed downward in the hand. I really like this style of knife fighting. For one thing, a large portion of the disarms that come from Jujitsu, Aikido and Ninjutsu are less effective against the underhand knife fighting techniques because the downward pointing blade protects the wrist, and you can use it more defensively against incoming strikes. You sacrifice a few inches of reach but gain a lot of defensive advantage and strength. There are fewer people trained in disarms against the underhanded techniques.
So I am looking for an instructional knife fighting video that goes over using the knife in this position. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this?
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Post by randomnobody on May 10, 2009 20:35:45 GMT
First result on YouTube I got for "reverse-grip knife techniques" was this, which I think pretty good. There are many more there, too, but I'm lazy today.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2009 21:10:19 GMT
Excellent. Thanks.
I will do some more searches for 'reverse grip' instead of unerhanded.
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Post by randomnobody on May 10, 2009 21:38:33 GMT
You may also try "icepick" as some call it this.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2009 13:57:10 GMT
Someone out there feel free to correct me, but I think the majority of the knife techniques presented in systems such as Fiore and Lichtenauer are Icepick grips. Also, Shivworks p'kal method is DEFINITELY worth a look if you're interested in a reverse grip.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2009 1:40:44 GMT
Someone out there feel free to correct me, but I think the majority of the knife techniques presented in systems such as Fiore and Lichtenauer are Icepick grips. You've got it exactly right. Check out this great demo vid by MEMAG.
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Post by randomnobody on May 12, 2009 7:36:28 GMT
That was a good video. Those guys aren't bad, though the handstand...walk...thing at the end felt awkward and out of place.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2009 12:24:20 GMT
That was a good video. Those guys aren't bad, though the handstand...walk...thing at the end felt awkward and out of place. I got a good laugh out of it. Overall, I think the topic of the 'Icepick' grip is a good one to discuss. Some folks seem to dismiss it as the way an untrained, everyday person, would hold a knife in an attack. I think there's more intricacy to it than that. There are so many videos out there suggesting a knife fight resembles two well trained commandos circling and dancing around each other like cobras in a desert and waving their knives about in the forehand grip. That's probably true at an expert level, but when would two experts ever square off with a pair of knives? If someone went at me this way I would probably end up with some painful slashing wounds to my arms and maybe even body, but I doubt they would kill me so easily. Cuts and slashes can obviously cause severe damage to a body, and there's always the danger of bleeding out because of untreated wounds, but deep stab wounds are what will kill you quick. With that in mind, one of the most powerful ways to deliver a stabbing wound is with the 'common' Icepick grip.
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Post by randomnobody on May 12, 2009 12:38:05 GMT
Funny you should say that many would dismiss it as a method of the inexperienced, as one of my more vivid memories of my high school Criminal Justice class (so many years ago...) was when the teacher related some experiences with people who had knives, and specifically said that one can tell a person has trained when they attack with the reverse or icepick grip, as opposed to the forehand.
I've always found my slashes weaker with a reverse/icepick grip, but it's brutal on locks, stabs, and a number of other techniques.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2009 13:52:23 GMT
Also known as orthodox and unorthodox grip (depending on what system you are studying these terms are used interchangeably, in some systems the overhand grip is the unorthodox one) it is a good indication of level of training to an extent. If the assailant is just trying to wildly stab you, underhand or overhand, it is obvious if you know anything about knife fighting that they are inexperienced. However some knife fighting systems do look to all the world like the practitioner is randomly flailing around but when you gain experience in knife fighting systems you start to learn about the deadly intent of that random looking flailing.
I find the underhand grip with both a dagger and a single edged blade is the harder but more rewarding technique to learn. The problem with many of the dagger plays from the medieval manuals is that they are just that, against modern techniques the medieval techniques are not as effective. The secret to fighting in an "icepick" or "hammer" grip (there are so many names for the same thing) is the weight and balance of the knife. If the knife is too heavy or the balance is not neutral it makes it a much harder technique, whereas overhand it is length that is the issue. The icepick grip is also exceptionally good for blocking strikes from your assailant especially they are striking with fists or hands.
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Post by randomnobody on May 12, 2009 14:46:01 GMT
I do note greater success from "icepick" grip with my Gen 2 Norman dagger than, say, my Valiant Co. Bosnian, though the latter feels more natural than the former, the former deals more damage typically.
I suspect, though, that empty cardboard boxes are not the best measure of one's power in a reverse-grip slash... The weight of my Bosnian, for instance, being so little, versus the practical non-weight of an unsupported, empty cardboard box, there's not much opportunity to "bite" in. I wager it'd go over better were I doing the same thing to a soft, squishy throat...
Though both above-mentioned blades handle the "standard" (were we calling that overhand?) grip nicely as far as handling and cutting.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2009 15:28:22 GMT
Funny you should say that many would dismiss it as a method of the inexperienced, as one of my more vivid memories of my high school Criminal Justice class (so many years ago...) was when the teacher related some experiences with people who had knives, and specifically said that one can tell a person has trained when they attack with the reverse or icepick grip, as opposed to the forehand. I can totaly see where this would be true in regards to an intent to kill. If someone truly wishes to see you dead and knows what they are doing, they are more likely to attack you in a reverse grip.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2009 18:26:32 GMT
On the other hand, if you are using a folding knife the reverse grip can lead to self injury depending on the quality of the locking mechanism and balance of the blade. Most modern clip types for example, take much better to a forehand grip. Tanto styles, take better to reverse. A person of sufficient experience in knife fighting can actually change grip several times in the course of a movement.
Just my $0.02
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2009 23:03:43 GMT
It is far easier to hamstring someone with an ice pick grip and as LP said an experienced knife fighter can shift grips as fast as they can attack. Grip changes were one of the first things I learned in knife fighting, the trick is to do it in such a way that it gives the assailant no operning to knock the blade from your hand and gives you optimal angle for a follow up strike using the momentum of the motion to aid in speed of striking.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2009 8:19:08 GMT
Icepick and over hand grips all have their uses. Lethality in knife fighting comes from knowing what to use and when. Cold Steel's "Warrior's Edge" training series covers this as the most basic principle as do several of the writings of the knife designer Gil Hibben. While most things said in online forums should be taken with a small Siberean salt mine, some times that is not the case. In this disscussion I will defer to Bloodwraith's knowledge especially since we agree at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2009 16:56:32 GMT
Amen! And then there's the (somewhat) new-ish Shivworks tech which is the reverse icepick, where the edge is in for really rapid jabs. Of course, one of the important things to remember about medieval techniques is that (correct me if I'm wrong) rondels really weren't their most effective in the slash. Combine that with already reduced power from the icepick grip, and it seems to me like they used them almost exclusively (almost) as a stabber. On a side note, I was talking to a friend o' the family, retired police officer from New Mexico, who said that reverse grips were more threatening to an officer because they were easier to hide (inside a jacket, etc.) and could more easily penetrate a vest.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2009 8:39:31 GMT
Law enforcement friends of mine have said the same thing. In self-defense classes the overhand grip is taught first just because it comes more naturally to most folks and you are trying to show folks how to use things like a modern folder. Then again you are telling people to stab primarily so the reverse grip probably should be used a bit more in that context.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2009 17:08:14 GMT
It's all about application, as I have said numerous times, you can have all the theory and all the training but if you don't know how to effectively put it into practice it is useless.
Also there might be some merit in clearing up some erroneous details here. The techniques of the underhand grip do have different names. For example not every underhand grip attack is the icepick. Icepick refers to a vertically descending stab and only the vertically descending stab. There are many different types of strikes and all have different names. In my experience the most lethal weapon in an underhand grip is the korambit, probably because it is specifically designed this way. When you have korambits with less acute curvature they are more flexible, unpredictable and nasty. I have to say, and I don't want anyone to take offense at this, but those police stab vests against someone with training are about as useful as a fart in a hurricane. As far as I know those vests don't protect the arms, under arms, nerve clusters, muscles clusters, motor tendons or any of the targets that a real knife fighter instinctively targets.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2009 20:18:47 GMT
Hell yes to the Karambit! I love that knife! I've got two karambits and I'm savin' up for the kris cutlery traditional version. If you want to see this beautifully lethal tool in action, check out Silat styles that emphasize the Karambit. I personally think that it's one of the most aesthetically pleasing types of knives, and its beauty is matched only by its wicked efficiency. Unfortunately, KoA only sells the deeply curved I version of Kris's blade, as opposed to the more versatile II version.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2009 1:06:43 GMT
It's all about application, as I have said numerous times, you can have all the theory and all the training but if you don't know how to effectively put it into practice it is useless. Also there might be some merit in clearing up some erroneous details here. The techniques of the underhand grip do have different names. For example not every underhand grip attack is the icepick. Icepick refers to a vertically descending stab and only the vertically descending stab. There are many different types of strikes and all have different names. In my experience the most lethal weapon in an underhand grip is the korambit, probably because it is specifically designed this way. When you have korambits with less acute curvature they are more flexible, unpredictable and nasty. I have to say, and I don't want anyone to take offense at this, but those police stab vests against someone with training are about as useful as a fart in a hurricane. As far as I know those vests don't protect the arms, under arms, nerve clusters, muscles clusters, motor tendons or any of the targets that a real knife fighter instinctively targets. And as I said in that post I defer to your knowledge at this point. Especially since we are saying the same things. And I agree stab vest, like military flak vests are essentially useless. Ive often thought a person is better off without them for the advantage of increased mobility. (I'm a tai chi guy, remember, mobility if everything. ;) ) If one is using an historical context, then the old fighting manuals did show reverse grip techniques. If one is using a modern context, quick draw - one hand open - to horizontal presentation thrust-stab with an overhand / forehand / lifeline grip is the core technique. Other than that, the greatest ally in knife fighting training is a copy of Grey's Anatomy so the fighter can accurately select targets.
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