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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 8:38:41 GMT
In another thread a forumite mentioned he would like to learn some simple Dao forms. The two simplest that come to mind to me are the Chen and Yang Taijiquan broadsword forms. The Yang style can be seen here: The Chen style here: Training DVD's for both can be found made by Master Jesse Tsao at the following Url: www.taichihealthways.com/tai-chi-dvd.htm The DVD's are reasonable priced in the $35 US range and payment are accepted through paypal. However, shipping is USPS so it can take a little while for the items to arrive. When I bought the Yang broadsword DVD it took about a week for it to reach Kentucky from California. And I hope you don't expect professional packaging as the disks arrive in a simple economy jewel case. However, the lessons are broken down well with front and back views to see the movements clearly so they are not hard to learn from. Do not expect to learn the Taiji basics in the weapon videos as it is assumed you already know them, but for those with experience these videos make good learning tools.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2009 5:41:17 GMT
is it mostly forms or whole lessons?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2009 8:09:27 GMT
They are full instructional DVD's on the forms. These particular DVD's don't include martial application, but do do a thorough job of teaching the forms and some of the philosophy behind them. Each DVD is broken down into several lessons so that the forms can be learned a piece at a time. Hope that helps.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2009 14:59:21 GMT
The good and bad part about training with a video, is that you must first have experience in martial arts. If you do have, and in this case swordsmanship experience, you will be more apt to adapt and apply. I was once had a really good book on Yang Taijiquan. It showed pic format on the full 108 form. It had no martial applications tho. A coworker took it when he got fired. My supervisor asked if it was dangerous for him to have that book. I told him no, because, the man that took it has no background in taichi whatsoever. there would be no way that he would know what happens between the pics, nor how to properly use the form for combat. He asked how it helped me then. So I told him that it was a guideline for enhancing what I already knew.
This would be true of converting any form to martial aps, without the help of an instructor. Even karate is hard to learn w/o proper instruction. The biggest problem would be knowing when and where to divide and adapt the form to fit the combat scenario.
Of course, Boyle might have plenty of experience to be able to properly use vid forms and accomplish that goal.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2009 17:47:28 GMT
It is difficult to learn from videos and books, this I will not argue. However, it is not impossible. While I would not recommend the video and book route for someone with no martial background, the video and book route is a valid option for those who already have some martial training. I don't even believe it has to be in the same style, though style conflicts could cause some confusion. (I'm thinking external vs internal styles here) Anyway, some folks don't have the luxury of a local MA school or have schedules that allow for taking regular classes (since most MA schools have evening classes think about a person who works a 3pm-11pm type shift) or some people a just too broke to afford $60 friggen bucks a month for classes. This is why the books and videos exists as well as being reference for those who do get classroom instruction. True pictures in a book don't often show transitional movement this is the advantage of video, like matrixing menus where you can pull up individual movements in a sequence are an advantage DVD's have over the old VHS tapes. But learning from these mediums can and has been done both in the present and the past.
I do have a martial arts background in TKD, I have learned taijiquan solely through independent means. I had to unlearn much of what I learned in TKD to be able to do taiji, I have also had to learn to listen to my body to be able to feel when a move wasn't correct to what I was learning the movement should be. I did get lucky and end up with some coaching from some taiji instructors I have met through webcam video clips, and this has helped a great deal, but I have had very little of that. I have also had to do a great deal of research into my chosen martial art, more so than I think I would have done had I been taking regular classes. I have spent hours meditating on the Taiji classics and thinking about how they apply to what I am doing. But I do feel that if another person is willing to put the same amount of work in that I have been doing, that they can learn the same way. Now learning independently does mean my skill will develop more slowly than someone who takes classes as I can't participate in Push-Hands practice but there are other ways to develop root and balance, I practice those.
As for martial application once movements are worked into muscle memory strange things can happen. I was fooling around with some neighbors a while back, and when one of them threw a punch at me (this was not a serious fight.. just some goofing around sparring type stuff) I ended up unconsciously going into the posture "Play Pipa" and putting him into a joint lock and taking him down with it. There was no conscious thought about this on my part, the movement just occurred. Now was this because I have a background in marital arts and may have learned a similar technique years ago, was it because I practice the 37 form twice a day every day, or is it because I'm just that dang good. Well, I thoroughly doubt the latter. I'm no prize fighter, and I'm no pro athlete. However, I have seen supposedly "Untrained" fighters beat trained fighters. There is something to be said for how the unconscious mind works when presented with a pattern of movements to give it options to work with. This is also part of the beauty of taijiquan, when practiced correctly (or close enough to correctly that the intent is there) the form does contain the true essence of the art to include the applications. Would a person learn faster having an instructor show them the application, yes, of course but the same learning can be accomplished independently by a person willing to put in the time and effort.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 2:06:07 GMT
Bruce Lee was quoted as saying, " I do not fear the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I do fear the man who has practice one kick 10,000 times." That said, the repitition in learning and practice is extremely important. Or as you stated, the muscle memory having its reaction on the response.
Amazingly enough, I have always used martial arts for the work industry. Before I became a medic a few years ago... I did various labor jobs. The use of the martial arts in using a shovel making a ditch, for instance, is a true benefit. One of you guys, I think it was you, Boyle, mentioned the use of a shovel as a weapon.
In the old school kung fu movies, where they show shaolin monks in training... my favorite is 36th Chamber with Liu Chia Hoi... work meathods are used in training to build up muscle groups needed and to provide this muscle memory that you spoke of. In my case, though, I did it to make the job easier. I don't fight alot, being a peaceful man. So I have to use my arts somewhere. Now I use my leverage training as a method of lifting people from the floor when they have fallen and can't get up.
In any teaching, math, english, geography, and also used in advertising, repetition makes memory. If ou want to remember something, the most simple way is to continually repeat it over and over again. Even when we were kids in sunday school, the teacher had us quote verses over and over again, until we memorized them. Then we would get a blue ribbon for remembering the most verses.
I watch the shows on television, UFC, and see alot of martial artist get WHOOPED by simple street brawling. Only a few times have I seen true martial skills in victory. As you said, the untrained fighter succeeded. A lot of martial arts programs are more geared to making money from the students nowadays, and, again, like you said, who can afford the prices. They give out belts for level achievements, they break boards with the grain, not across the grain. They spar with those who are using set rules and similar movements, and styles. There isn't a large amount of diversity in that.
The repetition in your personal training, even self taught, or by video instruction, has developed you to becoming a better artist.
Since this is chiefly about swordplay, I see a lot of people use wooden swords for practice. Keeping safety in mind, and liability issues, in dojos, I think a blunt would be better. Granted, the training w/ woodies can build up confidence, but some of that can be lost in the thought of getting slapped with steel.
I enjoy writing with you, since we see quite a bit of the smae things, so I thought that I would share these ideas with you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 16:17:59 GMT
Thank you, and having to react to some your writings has forced me to think more deeply about what I do and reflect on why I am doing what I do. It seems part of the essence of Taijiquan is practicing that one kick 10,000 times. Yes, we have very long forms in comparison to other styles but that's the point for each aspect of our styles a person learns one maybe two forms. One form for Jian, one form for Dao, one maybe two forms for open hand. The key is not how many forms are known like it was when I took TKD but how well we perform that one form.
As for sword play, I think that it is this same essence of single form training that truly builds the skill of a true swordsman. It is practicing that one trust, that one parry constantly until there is no thought in the movement that makes us swordsmen. As for wooden swords, I would prefer to use a metal blunt to make my muscles learn the weight and balance of a real sword, I use wood for safety because of having a young child who could easily get injured by a mis-step with a steel blunt. I also remember the stories of Yang Lu Chan and Cheng Man-Ch'ing and the dang feather dusters.
Yang Lu Chan defeated the pole master by using a simple feather duster as a sword. Cheng Man-Ch'ing begged Yang Chen Fu to teach him swordsmanship and was handed a feather duster and told to go practice with that. Years later Cheng had the skill to spar with an aluminum foil covered wooden sword for hours and not once let the foil on his blade get ripped while doing so, nor be defeated by any of his students. This why why we train the way we do. Regardless of style and our styles of learning those of us who train in the Chinese arts know that by studying them we have made lifelong commitments to these arts where progress is measured in decades not months, but this is how be build true skill.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2009 18:36:01 GMT
Aluminum foil covered woody used w/o ripping the foil...WOW. I thought my sifu was good.
I took TKD while in Navy. Like you, I had to forget everything I ever new about martial arts to learn kung fu. My sifu had the hardest time teaching the black belt karate guys, since they had been studying for years. They kept jumping back into karate forms. While I was a beginner (sifu didn't do the belt thing... only beginner, intermediate, and advanced) I was getting karate black belt (trophe holders) 2/3 of the time, by just staying with the forms we were learning.
We had a karate guy get a few hits in on me by going out of form, so my sifu asked me why I was getting hit. I told him that they were out of the form we were trying to learn. I asked his permission to go out of form, and he said to show what I know. So I mixed a couple of animal moves (mantis and a horse style) and whooped him up pretty good. I popped him like 5 times before he could block.
I hate to sound down on other arts, but, this stuff is way better. other arts are good, but like Bruce Lee used to say, karate found its origin in kung fu. I believe that it really has to do with the repetition, and muscle movements. Of course, the Japanese arts have been watered down here in America so bad that could have alot to do with it.
One of my fellow students got kicked out of class for an Ethics violation. He had been taking the Jeet Kun Do studies for only about six weeks. So he decided to go to the local TKD studio and see if he could do very well. He smacked around one of their instructors pretty good. When sifu found out about that from the TKD studio, the dude was dropped from the class. Sifu said that he was not teaching us so we could show off, nor beat people up. He didn't even believe in going to tournaments. He told us that our kung fu was for within. Only should it be shown when absolutely necessary to dafend one's self or others.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 0:21:20 GMT
One of the things I like about taiji is that it is a minimum force art. "four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds" as the classics say. To me it is the minimum force skills that need to be cultivated in the modern world. If I truly wanted to just hurt people, I could get a gun from a pawn shop fairly easily. After five years in the active military, I know how to shoot a good day at a range would give me all the brush-up I would need. However, that's not the point. To me martial arts are about self-knowledge first and foremost, restraint and discipline second, and fighting skills lastly. It is through honing those latter skills that we develop the means to develop the former. Not to mention, and I'm not meaning to bring religion into this but i happen to be Wiccan, our foremost law is "And it harm none, do what you will." While there are allowances for defense of self and family the first rule is that prohibition against causing harm. This is why I like the minimum force styles they fit well with my own personal belief system.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 0:39:16 GMT
One of the things I like about taiji is that it is a minimum force art. "four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds" as the classics say. To me it is the minimum force skills that need to be cultivated in the modern world. If I truly wanted to just hurt people, I could get a gun from a pawn shop fairly easily. After five years in the active military, I know how to shoot a good day at a range would give me all the brush-up I would need. However, that's not the point. To me martial arts are about self-knowledge first and foremost, restraint and discipline second, and fighting skills lastly. It is through honing those latter skills that we develop the means to develop the former. Not to mention, and I'm not meaning to bring religion into this but i happen to be Wiccan, our foremost law is "And it harm none, do what you will." While there are allowances for defense of self and family the first rule is that prohibition against causing harm. This is why I like the minimum force styles they fit well with my own personal belief system. When you truly know that you can defend yourself and probably lame the opponent, it is indeed the show of strength to simply walk away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 0:46:45 GMT
Who was it that said the most effective warrior is one who can win without fighting?
Oh wait, I think that was Sun Tzu in the Art of War, if I remember correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 2:30:32 GMT
Must be where Dr. Yang took it from.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2009 9:30:38 GMT
Possibly. I'm pretty sure Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is familiar with that particular book.
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