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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2009 22:25:53 GMT
"I must explain that the jian's structure is not ideal for chopping, in fact no chopping or swinging techniques exist inside jian fighting repertoire. To answer your question, this jian with its blade structure is functional for what it is meant for; quick thrusting, stabbing, slicing and cutting. I cannot recommend that you test this blade rigorously by swinging or chopping with it, it is simply not what it is meant for. "
Anyone else besides me a little bit confused by that line?
While the jian is definitely not used as vigorously as a dao, there are still some big slashing motions that are used with it. For example, a common technique with a jian is called "pi". Pi simply means to split, or CHOP. I've seen plenty of examples of this technique being used in many forms. So to say one doesn't chop with a jian seems a bit erroneous to me. Granted the motion isn't exactly the same as the one a fighter would use with a dao, but it's still a straight down slashing motion. Maybe it's a difference in terminology or something, but I just find that statement of Mr. Sambath's odd.
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Post by sicheah on May 6, 2009 23:02:27 GMT
"I must explain that the jian's structure is not ideal for chopping, in fact no chopping or swinging techniques exist inside jian fighting repertoire. To answer your question, this jian with its blade structure is functional for what it is meant for; quick thrusting, stabbing, slicing and cutting. I cannot recommend that you test this blade rigorously by swinging or chopping with it, it is simply not what it is meant for. " Anyone else besides me a little bit confused by that line? While the jian is definitely not used as vigorously as a dao, there are still some big slashing motions that are used with it. For example, a common technique with a jian is called "pi". Pi simply means to split, or CHOP. I've seen plenty of examples of this technique being used in many forms. So to say one doesn't chop with a jian seems a bit erroneous to me. Granted the motion isn't exactly the same as the one a fighter would use with a dao, but it's still a straight down slashing motion. Maybe it's a difference in terminology or something, but I just find that statement of Mr. Sambath's odd. I was looking at the Zi Dian Jian at enlightmentswords.com and judging by the looks of that swords, it is suitable for light cutting but not heavy cutting as in cutting tatami mats. Nevertheless the Yang style tai chi that I practice emphasize jians as a slicing weapon as oppose to chopping weapon like the dao. I honestly believe that a well made jian, like the ones made by zheng-wu or jin-shi could easily chop (or cleave) a person's arm but I think jian's is designed in making quick but deadly slicing motion, not to dismember his arm but to wound his arm just enough to render it useless. That being said, I personally think that jian ( correct me here as I am no historian ;D ) as a "gentleman's weapons" and were replaced by dao in chinese military by late han dynasty. Of course functional jian still exist within chinese martial arts but it is not a standard weapon for war. Well that is just my 2 cents, please correct me if I am wrong. |
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Post by sicheah on May 6, 2009 23:09:40 GMT
After browsing the web for a while, I have came across this website: www.sinosword.com/They have a nice selection of jian, I was interested in the simple fittings jian because they may be within the SBG price range ($sub 300) are they the real deal, or not? Also there is the usual zhiswords www.zhisword.com/index.phpThe usual complaint on zhi swords is the fitting is poorly made, and I have heard that they copy some of the products used from zheng-wu. But what about the handling aspects of zhi swords? |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 0:20:47 GMT
Well I can understand why this particular sword is not a chopping sword, first of all it is hollow ground (which is fine by me) second of all the whole sword without scabbard only weighs 730 grams/1.6 pounds. Also the jian is not a chopping weapon, it is designed to thrust, stab etc, the dao was the chopping weapon. Chopping implies power, something jian is not renowned for. I find it quite difficult to believe that this weapon was ever used in battle. None the less it is an extremely nice looking sword, good for shadow drilling if nothing else and it has full tang construction.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 5:00:27 GMT
Well I can understand why this particular sword is not a chopping sword, first of all it is hollow ground (which is fine by me) second of all the whole sword without scabbard only weighs 730 grams/1.6 pounds. Also the jian is not a chopping weapon, it is designed to thrust, stab etc, the dao was the chopping weapon. Chopping implies power, something jian is not renowned for. I find it quite difficult to believe that this weapon was ever used in battle. None the less it is an extremely nice looking sword, good for shadow drilling if nothing else and it has full tang construction. That this particular weapon isn't able to chop through things well, I can understand. After all, we can easily see that by it's attributes; ie, hollow ground, very light weight, etc. But to say a jian can't chop or cut is erroneous to me. Maybe it's just a matter of terminology, but considering that I've both learned and seen jian forms that use cutting, slashing, and chop like motions, and have seen people using jian to cut though things like bamboo and tatami (check out Scott Rodell's work for instance), I just think that this statement is misleading. Again, I know it's not used like a dao: the chopping motions of the dao are not the same as the as the cutting and slashing motions of the jian. But similar motions are still used. Again, recall the "pi" technique. You might also want to look at the following video clips: This is an old Zheng Wu video showing how he makes his swords. towards the end you see him using them on targets like tatami and pieces of meat (flesh and bone) easily. The first batch of cuts are done with two hands, but note the last couple... they are upward cuts down with one hand that barely seem to take much strength at all. An example of the Kun Wu Jian form. While it is performed very daintily, note how many cuts are used here. A trailer for Yang Jwing Ming's dvd on Northen Chinese Sword forms. Note that while the forms are graceful, the cuts are done with enough force to be able to cut into and/or through their intended targets. www.sevenstarstrading.com/html/This is Scott Rodell's website for selling antique and well made modern Chinese swords. Wait for the video clip to load on the page: it's the first one you will see. You'll see him cutting through bamboo with three different cuts. The first one is with a jian, the second with a dao, and the third with a jian again. Note that he uses the weapons to cut through the bamboo differently ( he is clearly using more strength with the dao, but not as much with the jian), yet he is still able to cut through easily, particularly with the very first cut. There are many more clips I can show, but I think these prove my point. Jian have been made to cut things, and have been used as cutting weapons as well as thrusting weapons. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 5:38:41 GMT
It is a problem of terminology here, I think what Jeremy is saying is that you can't randomly hack through stuff with a jian the way you can with a dao. Of course I know a jian can cut, slash and I am well aware of the pi technique and have used it often myself, I think that if this sword is heat treated and all that as they claim it will cut and slice with the best of them. A cut or a slash is different to a chop, chopping is a heavy cutting motion like when you chop wood which you should never do with a jian of course. The jian in it's many techniques doesn't have any cuts that are designed to chop through bone, whereas many of the dao techniques are designed to do just that. The jian is used to thrust, to break bones with tip strikes/slaps. I'm not saying a well made jian can't cut through bone but not such a light hollow ground blade. I would still try my hand with it against water bottles and probably thin rolled tatami.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2009 8:24:34 GMT
I think the main difference here is just one of terminology. Yes the dao is the "chopper" of the two swords but to say that a Jian, in general, can't chop would be erroneous. The sixth movement in the Beijing 32 Jian form comes to mind, at the moment: "This movement, #6, has various names: Little Dipper, Small Star of the Big Dipper, Sounding the Sea, Split Independently, Wheel Chop Sword with One-leg Stand, Small Star of the Literary God." www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/sword32.htm#AnalysisThat the particular Jian in question is not suitable for such techniques, that I believe as it is a very lightweight sword. Just my $0.02 |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2009 6:07:55 GMT
I want the Yi Mon Dao!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2009 5:54:57 GMT
Sadly, I just noticed the website in the first post doesn't work anymore. Maybe its temporary (that is what I am hoping for). I liked their selection of daos and was considering getting some price quotes to buy from them. I hope they didn't go under and/or ran away with some people 's money  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2009 21:45:51 GMT
"I must explain that the jian's structure is not ideal for chopping, in fact no chopping or swinging techniques exist inside jian fighting repertoire. To answer your question, this jian with its blade structure is functional for what it is meant for; quick thrusting, stabbing, slicing and cutting. I cannot recommend that you test this blade rigorously by swinging or chopping with it, it is simply not what it is meant for. " Anyone else besides me a little bit confused by that line? While the jian is definitely not used as vigorously as a dao, there are still some big slashing motions that are used with it. For example, a common technique with a jian is called "pi". Pi simply means to split, or CHOP. I've seen plenty of examples of this technique being used in many forms. So to say one doesn't chop with a jian seems a bit erroneous to me. Granted the motion isn't exactly the same as the one a fighter would use with a dao, but it's still a straight down slashing motion. Maybe it's a difference in terminology or something, but I just find that statement of Mr. Sambath's odd. I was looking at the Zi Dian Jian at enlightmentswords.com and judging by the looks of that swords, it is suitable for light cutting but not heavy cutting as in cutting tatami mats. Nevertheless the Yang style tai chi that I practice emphasize jians as a slicing weapon as oppose to chopping weapon like the dao. I honestly believe that a well made jian, like the ones made by zheng-wu or jin-shi could easily chop (or cleave) a person's arm but I think jian's is designed in making quick but deadly slicing motion, not to dismember his arm but to wound his arm just enough to render it useless. That being said, I personally think that jian ( correct me here as I am no historian ;D ) as a "gentleman's weapons" and were replaced by dao in chinese military by late han dynasty. Of course functional jian still exist within chinese martial arts but it is not a standard weapon for war. Well that is just my 2 cents, please correct me if I am wrong. Have you seen the Han-Era Jian? They are stout and ferocious blades: some are very wide and are double fullered/grooved near the center. It would be a fearsome site...  |
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Post by sicheah on Jul 1, 2009 21:27:46 GMT
Sadly, I just noticed the website in the first post doesn't work anymore. Maybe its temporary (that is what I am hoping for). I liked their selection of daos and was considering getting some price quotes to buy from them. I hope they didn't go under and/or ran away with some people 's money I check a few minutes ago and their site seems to be up and running... no worries. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2009 11:24:59 GMT
You're right ! +1 for bringing the good news |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2009 17:59:47 GMT
does anybody know the functionality of the kung fu jian? it's similar to a japanese shirasaya in the sense that it's just the blade and collar fit and pinned into a wood handle and scabbard. but, i was always told that shirasaya should not be handled in practice because lack of a hanguard is dangerous. so, what does that mean for their kung fu jian?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2009 18:16:38 GMT
does anybody know the functionality of the kung fu jian? it's similar to a japanese shirasaya in the sense that it's just the blade and collar fit and pinned into a wood handle and scabbard. but, i was always told that shirasaya should not be handled in practice because lack of a hanguard is dangerous. so, what does that mean for their kung fu jian? You mean this Jian? www.enlightenmentswords.com/product/jian_stick.htmlThe lack of a handguard would certainly be limiting but in much of Chinese swordsmanship the hilt isn't used much. That having been said (and probably about to be argued about) my thought is that both the shirasaya and stick jian would have been the Eastern Asian equivalents of the western "sword cane." A concealed weapon that would have surprise as the main advantage. According to the website it would be a fully function sword, but I personally would not use it as a practice weapon. Maybe a bit of test cutting if I owned one but no more than that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2009 3:59:26 GMT
That Han Dao is easily the most aesthetically pleasing swords I've seen.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2009 22:56:15 GMT
they are all beautiful, i love the simplicity of the kung fu jian though. Same with the Shirasaya of Japanese swords. i can't get over their awesomeness
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 0:50:23 GMT
I asked about the Han Dao. Awaiting a reply as to the price. What I am most interested in is the Qin Spear Head. Freakin' Awesome. To me at least. For some reason I have been having a hard time locating a functional Chinese spear head. Maybe you guys see them every day. I also inquired to the price of their Jian stand, as another poster has a thread where he is looking for one.
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Post by sicheah on Jul 15, 2009 1:14:58 GMT
Zheng-wu forge might have some. The Han dynasty spear looks gorgeous as heck but I don't think they come cheap. You have to ask them for the price. Go to www.zheng-wu.com scroll onto "Menu" and click on "Chinese Swords" and then "Spears" Edit: Zheng-wu Chinese swords section is the place I go and drool,  Edit: Zheng-wu forge custom made jians typically goes from $1000 and up. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2009 1:38:33 GMT
What is the starting price on those Zheng-wu swords? Anyone know. I'll shoot them an email asking about the spear heads post haste.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 11:55:15 GMT
Still no reply from Enlightenment Swords in case anyone was wondering.
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