|
Post by ShooterMike on Oct 27, 2008 3:22:51 GMT
I have seen several discussions recently on the subject of cutting problems with European swords. This has either been from folks who are experienced JSA users who are trying their hand with a Euro sword. Or sword buyers who are new to cutting with their swords. The fact is, cutting with European straight-edged swords is "different" and that seems to be a problem for some.
I never learned with Japanese or other Asian swords. All my learning has been with straight, mostly double-edged swords of the European persuasion. I was fooling around this afternoon, looking for something to do, and feeling like I "wanted to help" in some way. So I made the following video.
I am a rank amateur at cutting. I just do it for fun, and because I REALLY like collecting swords. And I would feel like it was a waste of money if I didn't get to have fun with them on occasion.
Here's the video. There are some good cuts and some not so good cuts. My timing and footwork are terrible on most cuts. My body and feet move either way too early, or the sword moves way too late, depending on how you look at it. But all in all, I think it mostly shows how I think the sword edge should behave.
One thing of note: It is my opinion that with proper edge control, targets should be able to be cut at any angle. Some folks feel that plastic bottles need to be cut only with a downward diagonal cut. IMO this is cheating yourself of the learning possibilities to be gained from learning edge control in horizontal and upward cuts. It just take some practice to keep the edge traveling in a straight line and to simultaneously keep the edge moving in a slicing motion.
Thoughts or comments anyone (everyone)?
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Oct 27, 2008 3:40:37 GMT
"We're sorry, this video is no longer available." Guess I'll try again later?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2008 4:22:50 GMT
Me too, WHATS THE DEAL BRO?!
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Oct 27, 2008 4:59:18 GMT
Mike, great instructional video. I can't get enough of these. +1
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2008 5:09:21 GMT
Haha rank amateur?!? What does that make the rest of us . Yikes man, your bad cuts are better then most of my good ones . Hey have you had any experience with cutting single handed with the sword in a back position? Like tsafa's SCA stance or the right shoulder/vom tag/nebenhut of I33? I find it easier to cut with the sword positioned foward like your video and much harder when it is in the back position. Much harder for proper edge alignment is my guess...but even on the ones I think are good, it just feels harder for some reason.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Oct 27, 2008 5:13:04 GMT
Ah, there it is. Very nicely done, Mike.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Oct 27, 2008 10:18:52 GMT
Hey have you had any experience with cutting single handed with the sword in a back position? Like tsafa's SCA stance or the right shoulder/vom tag/nebenhut of I33? I find it easier to cut with the sword positioned foward like your video and much harder when it is in the back position. Much harder for proper edge alignment is my guess...but even on the ones I think are good, it just feels harder for some reason. I have done some cutting with shield and buckler. And I totally concur with your experience. Throwing the sword from the strong-side-back is awkward. It seems to me that strong-side-forward or passing step is much more correct from the point of body alignment and it feels better. I really need to work with my shields much more than I do. I mostly only use the back edge for rising return cuts and wraps, with the single-hander. And since I hurt my elbow, wraps are an iffy thing. Not used much at all since if I screw up the wrap my elbow smarts badly. I'd like to work more with the back edge. But I'm still getting the front edge to behave correctly. However, I know I need to incorporate the back edge into regular cutting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2008 14:25:27 GMT
Great tutorial Mike. Great cutting! That makes me want to get a European style sword and try some of that. WOW at 5:12. I would have been afraid to whomp into the stand with that cut. Bravo!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2008 15:42:20 GMT
Mike, that was great! Thanks so much for posting this! +1 It will be really helpful when I get around to buying a Eurpoean sword.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 29, 2008 16:29:04 GMT
I agree with Mike and Cold Napalm, cutting from right shoulder/vom tag/nebenhut with the strong side back is harder, BUT it is possible and in a fight it should be used as you are much better defended with strong side back. Yes, you cut better strong side forward, but you die better that way too. there are times in a fight when strong side forward is safe, but not often. I generally only go strong forward when I'm passing my opponent's shield or passing past their left side and thus my right (strong) side is no longer a viable target. I think the reason it is harder is because there is a limit to how far the body can turn and twist and when you swing from strong-side back you don't impact the target until you are closer to your body's limit of movement, thus making the movement more awkward and reducing the power available, and of course, messing with the angles. still I think it is one of the better stances for fighting as it makes staying alive easier.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Oct 29, 2008 16:36:06 GMT
Complete agreement, as long as a shield is involved. What about using bucklers ala I.33? Does the foot positioning change from sword&shield?
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Oct 29, 2008 22:00:02 GMT
I think Hand and Wagner teach very good footwork, however I feel that the style they teach (and I believe they have an faithful interpretation) ends up being more akin to longsword than sword and shield.
but to answer the question, yes shield type certainly makes a difference. as does the type of sword, and your prefence of offensive or defensive style, and also the type of movement you tend to use. what this all really means is that a good fighter will start with a stance appropriate to his equipment and wil shift through many different stances depending on the needs of the fight. I know this is obvious, but I think it is over-looked all the same.
in I.33 neither foot is favored as the right foot to have forward. even what you consider that the left foot forward under-arm is considered the strongest ward you have to remember that half-shield is the counter to under-arm and it is right foot forward. these are the two most common stances in I.33. so it all depends on your strategy really.
above I recomended left foot forward because we were talking about sword over right sholder in a vom tag type stance. as your position and approach changes you footwork will to. equipment type tends to restrict you to certain movements and approaches.
sorry so long and convoluted but this is neither an easy nor simple thing to answer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 1:35:15 GMT
Thanks for the vid +1 I'll have to watch it again before I try more cutting Friday I really like the last cut before the last tatami mat.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 2:13:30 GMT
I have been going over Hand and Wanger's I33 book and I think they are a bit too influenced by longswordmanship. They favor the half shield as a counter WAY too much. They aren't as agressive with the buckler as they should be and fall back to using things that I see in longsword use because of it. I haven't read the update in spada II yet however so this is based of their book as is. Oddly enough female fighter can go sword foot foward and stay very protected by shields because of their hip structure. I think this might be why walpurgis stance shows a female fighter. That stance looks to be more then just playing to sterotypes but also taking advantage of the fact that women have different muscles then men do. In Hand's book, the lady has the shield foot foward, but I always thought the image looks like she had her sword foot foward. As for foot positioning...What Ian said .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 2:26:55 GMT
That's an interesting avenue for discussion Cold Napalm... do you have any images showing what you're describing?
What do you mean by different muscles?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 2:54:59 GMT
www.thearma.org/Manuals/i33/65.jpgThe man is in first ward and the woman is in the walpurgis stance. As for different muscles, well women have the bone and hip muscles for childbirth...we don't . Women also have the shoulder ligiment attached closer on the arm then men do in general. Women when they make a fist, the kuckles form a curve while for men it's straight...in general. That type of things.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 3:53:43 GMT
Thanks mate that picture does a really great job of helping me understand (I think!). Females generally do seem to have a greater range of hip internal rotation. That's a really interesting observation, thanks!
I'm not sure how the womb affects martial arts... though I suspect you're jesting! The rest of the skeletal muscles are the same, just in slightly different positions due to the slight differences in bone structure. With regard to the fist I have noticed the females generally spontaneously make a curved fist but are capable of making a flat one... males just seem to spontaneously make a flat one... obviously I can't say this is true for all cases but from what I found loading of the hands is likely to influence bone length there which seemed to be greater in males than females. Not sure if there's specifically going to be a sex related difference. Again females seem to have greater shoulder range of motion (through observation, I can't find supporting evidence in research) but I couldn't find anything finding differences in ligament attachment with a quick search of the literature... These are interesting observations, though, how did you come by them?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 6:34:56 GMT
Well, it's those small differences that matter sometimes . The hip rotation was actually a female knight in an tir who figured it out and found that most men couldn't move their hips like she could and most women could. The fist, by making a fist, I mean a tight one. The reason it makes a difference is that even with a light grip, it changes how you target a shot. The reason I know about this is because I have the female majority hand. Which means that a lot of what other guys try to teach me didn't work because of my hands. It's actually one of the reasons why a lot of women have trouble learning certain martial arts...especially weapon based ones. And espcially since most sensei are men and this little issues never occurs to them. And the ligiment...well I learned that in my high school anatomy class . Then again my teacher also taught us over a 100 ways to kill somebody in that class. She was odd.... Oh another one is center of gravity . Women and men have different centers of gravity...for rather obvious reasons .
|
|