Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 3:12:07 GMT
Nice cabinets, make them yourself?
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Dec 30, 2008 4:30:33 GMT
I did indeed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 6:00:56 GMT
Doesn't look like they have any kind of finish on them yet, gonna just slap on some clear coat?
Oh +1 for the review
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 6:03:53 GMT
Well, unless they started doing a different method, the hamon is acid enhanced. So a better polish job will make the hamon fainter and less pronounced. I haven't seen a GG katana in person in ages though...so maybe they got better at making hamons...shrug. In their store pictures it looks enhanced. In absilit's picture, I can't tell. As for why I want a sword that sets easier...it's because a HRC 60-65 edge acts different then a 50-55 one. A 60 edge 40 spine sword will cut differently then a 55 edge 45 spine sword. But a 55/45 sword might as well be TH since it will act like one in the cut. And yes a proper DH katana will give you more feedback. And not just in cuts where you really mess up and bend the sword. TH swords lets small misalignments and bad forms go through just like a perfectly aligned blade while a DH sword will give you some slight feedback that you were off. Then again there is so much more then just this factor that goes into something like that however (like tuska and ito...blade geometry and what not). But in anycase, a DH blade does cut differently which is why some people want DH swords for practice. I can see why others might wanna go the tough route...but me, I rather learn to do it the right way. The lie your ass off is for the marketing department. Yes they have a DH katana that flexes...which means either the difference in hardnes is not very much and it's a TH blade for all intent and purposes...or it's a bainite katana. Since we know it's not option 2, we know it's a DH katana with a small difference in hardness. To sell it, they lie. Not in the demo, but by making you think a DH katana that flexes is a good thing (which it is if it's a bainite katana...if not it is actually considered to be a BAD thing). That is where the lie comes in. I'm still not sure you understand what I'm saying. If there IS a complete hamon, there IS a difference in hardness, and not just a little. The back DID NOT harden. If it did, there wouldn't be a line...just a billowy clouded area (technically called the 'habuchi') that covered the whole blade above the hardened edge. Now, in the blade I linked above...you can see the habuchi is very, VERY thin. This indicates a very abrupt transition from hard to unhardened (note I didn't say 'soft') steel. The 'spring' properties are inherent in the steel. Tamahagane is a relatively LOW carbon steel...thus, it bends easily when laterally stressed (flexed). People have taken this to mean that ALL 'proper' Japanese swords should bend rather than flex. This is simply untrue. 1075 is damn near eutectic (meaning there is just enough carbon to be completely absorbed by the iron without forming carbides during the heat treat process). This will make for a more flexible, durable blade, while also allowing the edge to hold a MUCH higher hardness than tamahagane, while still retaining some toughness due to its ability to be tempered after hardening...improving it's resistance to chipping. Look at it this way. If a blade that bent rather than flexed was 'superior' why did Howard Clark even bother spending so much time researching his duplex heat treatment method for forming a martensite/bainite blade? ANY time you can get a hamon (meaning martensite formed on the edge), and still improve the flexibility and toughness of the spine in any manner, you've created a superior blade. Believe me. If the Japanese were still making these blades as a tool of war...they'd JUMP on the modern steels and processes we've created. Bainite is simply not the only way to make a tough, flexible blade with a hardened edge. It's just the best way we've developed so far =). This doesn't mean the other ways are unacceptable...it just means they're not as effective as that one. Now...just to clarify your meaning (and mine)...you said that the spine needs to be 'soft' in order for the blade to absorb stresses and not 'snap'. Here is where the common misconception lies. It doesn't need to be 'soft' perse...it simply needs to NOT be hardened. There is a large difference between the two, and the hamon on this blade...no matter how bland you consider it (yes I know it's acid enhanced...this actually MASKS what's there to be seen with professional polishing...it doesn't improve on it), proves that the spine of the sword did not harden. Thus...it will still absorb the stresses of cutting quite well, not to mention arresting cracks if they do happen to propogate...which by the way, is the actual purpose of the unhardened spine. A cracked blade may survive the battle...allowing YOU to survive the battle as well. A shattered blade however, would not. Does what I'm saying make more sense now? Cris
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 6:32:52 GMT
Okay I know about all the metallurgy...BUT you have to realize that a 1075 blade that has the spine hardened enough (yes even under the clay, the steel DOES harden...and this can be controlled by type of clay and thickness of clay) to allow for flex isn't a meaningfully DH blade. Not only that but GG blades do not have a very hard edge. Once again, unless they changed their HT methods lately. They are like I said a 55/45 blade. And yes you can form a hamon with such a small difference and such swords CAN flex. My type XVIIIa custom sword will be DH to 55/45 without any clay used. It WILL flex. It WILL have a a distinct hamon line. I don't expect it to cut like a sword that is properly DH with a harder edge. And that is the crux...GG katanas that are DH aren't any different then a TH one. Forget the metal mombo jumbo...in the end they have a 55/45 blade. That means they act like TH blades. That is all that matters in the end.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 7:01:55 GMT
Okay I know about all the metallurgy...BUT you have to realize that a 1075 blade that has the spine hardened enough (yes even under the clay, the steel DOES harden...and this can be controlled by type of clay and thickness of clay) to allow for flex isn't a meaningfully DH blade. Not only that but GG blades do not have a very hard edge. Once again, unless they changed their HT methods lately. They are like I said a 55/45 blade. And yes you can form a hamon with such a small difference and such swords CAN flex. My type XVIIIa custom sword will be DH to 55/45 without any clay used. It WILL flex. It WILL have a a distinct hamon line. I don't expect it to cut like a sword that is properly DH with a harder edge. And that is the crux...GG katanas that are DH aren't any different then a TH one. Forget the metal mombo jumbo...in the end they have a 55/45 blade. That means they act like TH blades. That is all that matters in the end. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. However...one last thing before I do. To harden steel...you have understand the time/temperature/transformation chart. Basically what this is, is a chart that shows you the time frame in which you have to get the steel BELOW about 900* or so in order for it to harden properly. This is called 'the nose of the curve'. Here is an example of Kevin Cashen's dressed up TTT chart =). www.cashenblades.com/Info/TTT.htmlThis is the part that blows the hole in what you've said. You either miss the nose, or you do not. At which point...you either form martensite, or you do not. The goal of the clay (doesn't matter how thick or thin you put it on...if it's sufficient to miss the nose, it was thick enough...if not, then not) is to either a: retain enough heat to keep the spine from cooling within the time frame necessary to miss the nose, or b: insulate the steel from the cooling effects of the quenchant long enough to keep the spine from cooling within the time frame necessary to miss the nose (there's actually HUGE debates about which is accurate...although it sounds the same to me...and IS the same for practical purposes). Whatever cooled fast enough forms martensite, whatever didn't, doesn't. You CAN run into situations where the clay was insufficient, and you get what's called 'fine pearlite'. In this case the hamon would be indistinct...leaving a billowy white effect throughout the blade (as I mentioned above...the habuchi is made of fine pearlite). In this case you normalize, re-clay, and re-harden. If they state they have a 45/55 hardness from spine to edge...I agree that's bad...but not because the spine is wrong...it's because the edge isn't hard enough (as you did mention in my above quote...but before you were saying the spine was too hard). What it tells me is they either didn't get the blade up to the proper temperature while hardening...OR, they tempered it too far back. I'm more inclined to think it's the second. It's difficult to form a proper hamon if your temps aren't right on. Too high is more often the problem, causing cracking...not too low. The other option is that their testing method was faulty. If you don't calibrate a rockwell scale properly...you can get all KINDS of goofy numbers out of them. Cris
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 7:38:33 GMT
Okay, I agree that it may have been that they were too agressive in the tempering. Or maybe even polishing.
As for if the sword had a harder edge of say 60...then it would set if you tried and flex it. This is exactly why all that money was spend on making bainite katanas after all. So you can have the best of all worlds...but that comes at a rather high cost now doesn't it.
So, basically my main gripe is, no matter what, they messed it up somehow. I don't care exactly the why behind it...but the end result is a bad. Then they market that bad as a good. I consider this to be a bad behavior and that annoys me. And a lot of collectors. That is why many people wouldn't touch GG with a 10 ft pole. Makes sense now? It never was about the metallurgy, it was about the marketing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 7:49:43 GMT
Okay, I agree that it may have been that they were too agressive in the tempering. Or maybe even polishing. As for if the sword had a harder edge of say 60...then it would set if you tried and flex it. This is exactly why all that money was spend on making bainite katanas after all. So you can have the best of all worlds...but that comes at a rather high cost now doesn't it. Again...not quite right. If the edge was 60RC, and the spine 45RC...well, I'll just say the difference in hardness isn't what causes the thing to bend when flexed. It's the lack of yield strength in the unhardened part of the blade. This is where modern monosteel blades have the edge on historic tamahagane blades. The difference in hardness isn't relevant in that context. Worst case...if the edge were 60rc and not tempered properly, it would crack instead of bend (do you think tamahagane blades have a 60RC edge?). Believe me...hard, brittle steel will flex before bending, and often snap before flexing lol. The tempering process (NOT HARDENING!) is what allows the hard edge steel to gain enough toughness to flex rather than snap. It's the spine that holds the bend. If given the choice, the edge would return to true. So, basically my main gripe is, no matter what, they messed it up somehow. I don't care exactly the why behind it...but the end result is a bad. Then they market that bad as a good. I consider this to be a bad behavior and that annoys me. And a lot of collectors. That is why many people wouldn't touch GG with a 10 ft pole. Makes sense now? It never was about the metallurgy, it was about the marketing. This I can understand. But once again, did you ever consider that their measuring processes might be flawed? I'd be surprised if the difference in hardness were only 10 points, with that solid a hamon demarking hardened from unhardened. Overly tempered blades tend to lose distinctness in the hamon. Cris
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 8:02:44 GMT
Well 10 points is plenty to get a decent hamon from 1070 steel. Once again, my type XVIIIa sword is set up the same way after all. And it is acid enhanced to have the distinction better. And yeah it's pretty enhanced since after a good polish job, the GG loses (or at least use to) a lot of that distinction. Although instead of over tempering, the issue might also be that they go a little crazy during polishing. God know my gen 2 suffers from the same actions. Time is money...and waiting so the steel doesnt get too hot is time. As for the accuracy of the measurements...shurg I wasn't the one who did em. So that is hearsay...but I do believe those numbers. Because lets assume that the edge is 60 and the back 45. Forget all the reasons your giving...does a sword like that made from 1070 steel with maresite formation flex? The answer is no it does not. Does a 55/45 flex? the answer is yes it does.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 8:50:33 GMT
Well 10 points is plenty to get a decent hamon from 1070 steel. Once again, my type XVIIIa sword is set up the same way after all. And it is acid enhanced to have the distinction better. And yeah it's pretty enhanced since after a good polish job, the GG loses (or at least use to) a lot of that distinction. Although instead of over tempering, the issue might also be that they go a little crazy during polishing. God know my gen 2 suffers from the same actions. Time is money...and waiting so the steel doesnt get too hot is time. As for the accuracy of the measurements...shurg I wasn't the one who did em. So that is hearsay...but I do believe those numbers. Because lets assume that the edge is 60 and the back 45. Forget all the reasons your giving...does a sword like that made from 1070 steel with maresite formation flex? The answer is no it does not. Does a 55/45 flex? the answer is yes it does. Is that sword made yet or no? I thought you said in the above posts that it 'will be', not 'it is'. If it hasn't been made yet...then it remains to be seen whether 10pts is really enough. Either way however, my argument about the TTT curve stands. I will have to think on it and research a bit more to be sure though...thanks for giving me that =). As far as whether a 60rc/45rc blade will flex...that depends entirely on the steel and temper process. NOT the hardness. My little osoraku tanto I just finished will flex over 15* (I didn't have the guts to push it farther lol...it was TOUGH as hell getting it to flex at all) and return to true. It's 1060, and only 19" overall length. I can guarantee to you it's properly heat treated...as a file will DESTROY the steel on the back, and won't touch the edge steel at all. That's a pretty substantial flex...and if it were longer (with a larger area to distribute the load), I would expect it to easily flex more. Absilts only has about a 20* plus flex in his Chikara (rough estimate). Shouldn't a katana flex more than a tanto?? Also, just out of curiosity...would you consider a PPK to be properly heat treated...60rc edge, 45rc spine? I believe that's what they were advertised as. Cris
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 9:19:43 GMT
The blade is HT...the fitting is being made now. So it's kinda both . Actually my blade doesn't have the final polising yet, there is another sword that is almost done that isn't mine which does and it does have a distinct hamon line (that one is a XIIIb). About as much as what GG has when re-polished actually. Hanwei is advertised as 60/40 actually. But yes they are considered to be proper. As for longer DH blades being able to have more load then shorter ones...I'm not so sure on that. Yeah it has more area...but the math of the stress differential along a larger area might make it worse actually. Shurg, don't know the math for it so I can't be sure though. Like how SS is fine for knives but utterly useless for swords. Making something longer outta steel changes the physics quite a bit so I doubt it's something so simple. Shurg.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 9:37:32 GMT
As for longer DH blades being able to have more load then shorter ones...I'm not so sure on that. Yeah it has more area...but the math of the stress differential along a larger area might make it worse actually. Shurg, don't know the math for it so I can't be sure though. Like how SS is fine for knives but utterly useless for swords. Making something longer outta steel changes the physics quite a bit so I doubt it's something so simple. Shurg. You are right when it comes to load bearing...length decreases load bearing strength...but only as a function of leverage. That sort of explains what I mean. Say it took me 85ft/lb of torque to flex my 19" blade 15*. If my blade were 35" (common for a katana), it would require roughly half the torque to get the same 15*. However, the yield strength of the steel is still the same (per inch), and hasn't been surpassed. I couldn't put 85ft/lb on the end likely without bending it...but I could get it to flex far more than the 15* my tanto flexed, even using less torque. Make sense? As for the PPK...tomorrow I'm going to see just how far it will flex comfortably and post the results =). Cris
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Dec 30, 2008 13:32:02 GMT
Okay I know about all the metallurgy...BUT you have to realize that a 1075 blade that has the spine hardened enough (yes even under the clay, the steel DOES harden...and this can be controlled by type of clay and thickness of clay) to allow for flex isn't a meaningfully DH blade. Not only that but GG blades do not have a very hard edge. Once again, unless they changed their HT methods lately. They are like I said a 55/45 blade. And yes you can form a hamon with such a small difference and such swords CAN flex. My type XVIIIa custom sword will be DH to 55/45 without any clay used. It WILL flex. It WILL have a a distinct hamon line. I don't expect it to cut like a sword that is properly DH with a harder edge. And that is the crux...GG katanas that are DH aren't any different then a TH one. Forget the metal mombo jumbo...in the end they have a 55/45 blade. That means they act like TH blades. That is all that matters in the end. Huh ? Do you really think a DH blade will not flex without bending? That would be a poorly heat-treated blade indeed . Any decent DH will flex as much as the GG did and return to true...and I wouldn't want a blade that didn't. The way DH katana usually obtain a set is through sustained force in a target with improper edge alignment or while twisting ... etc. In other words the edge is on one plane, but the lateral forces and the target act as a "jig" and set the blade. Do you really think that DH blades were made DH so they would bend and give "feedback"? They were made as they were because it was the best technology the Japanese had to make a supple sword that could still hold a hell of an edge... So a HC L6 super katana is a "fancy etch job?" Not a true dh blade ? I guarantee you that if the Japanese could have made a 62/ 55 martensite/bainite katana they would have...and it is still DH ...not a "fancy etch job" I really disagree with the general thrust of your arguments. EDIT : Who is exactly is the governing body that are considering these blade proper or not....?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 22:01:45 GMT
As for longer DH blades being able to have more load then shorter ones...I'm not so sure on that. Yeah it has more area...but the math of the stress differential along a larger area might make it worse actually. Shurg, don't know the math for it so I can't be sure though. Like how SS is fine for knives but utterly useless for swords. Making something longer outta steel changes the physics quite a bit so I doubt it's something so simple. Shurg. You are right when it comes to load bearing...length decreases load bearing strength...but only as a function of leverage. That sort of explains what I mean. Say it took me 85ft/lb of torque to flex my 19" blade 15*. If my blade were 35" (common for a katana), it would require roughly half the torque to get the same 15*. However, the yield strength of the steel is still the same (per inch), and hasn't been surpassed. I couldn't put 85ft/lb on the end likely without bending it...but I could get it to flex far more than the 15* my tanto flexed, even using less torque. Make sense? As for the PPK...tomorrow I'm going to see just how far it will flex comfortably and post the results =). Cris Ah makes sense . Well I eagerly await the results of you flex test...and a karma for trying .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 9:13:34 GMT
After reading this review i have decided to make my first sword the Chikara V2. It fell within my price range and the hamon just looked so wicked i couldnt resist it. Thanks for the detailed review and discussion guys, I'll post some pics here as soon as i receive the sword.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 20:02:19 GMT
After reading this review i have decided to make my first sword the Chikara V2. It fell within my price range and the hamon just looked so wicked i couldnt resist it. Thanks for the detailed review and discussion guys, I'll post some pics here as soon as i receive the sword. good to hear. this is afterall, the purpose of reviews.
|
|
|
Post by septofclansinclair on Jan 11, 2009 21:19:41 GMT
absilits - Great review, +30 points easily - which puts you at over the 100 mark! Welcome to the Review Team shortlist.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 22:31:50 GMT
absilits - Great review, +30 points easily - which puts you at over the 100 mark! Welcome to the Review Team shortlist. absilits, congratulation with your achievement, my brother
|
|
Avery
Member
Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by Avery on Jan 11, 2009 22:52:20 GMT
Thanks fellas, much appreciated. ;D
|
|