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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 8:44:17 GMT
Nice and interesting picture, thank you for sharing. It doesn't show sabre fencing. The position of the fencers is in foil 'Sixt' which is no useful sabre-guard and their stance is a classical foil-stance. If you like to zoom the picture you will immediately notice that their swords are foils, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 12:17:59 GMT
I know, I just thought it was an interesting picture of cavalry training on foot. Note that the instructor in the background appears to have a singlestick.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 0:14:14 GMT
I'm including the complete introduction by Maestro Ramon Martinez to the republication of the Dover edition. It is a fascinating read and places Hutton's achievement in context. Enjoy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 8:51:22 GMT
I know that preface. As I said: . And if you have a look at it, you will notice that he uses foil parries. Which are completely senseless in sabre fencing (e.g. the sixt etc). His stance is a foil stance.
And what is more important: nobody ever used his DIY-techniques. They only exist in his booklet and may have existed in his short-living school or let us better say: he may have used them for his show events. No fencer ever used that system. Neither in GB, nor elsewhere in Europe. It has become quite well-known because of the internet and because people SEARCH für books (instead of getting real lessons by real fencing masters).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 20:37:17 GMT
I know that preface. As I said: . And if you have a look at it, you will notice that he uses foil parries. Which are completely senseless in sabre fencing (e.g. the sixt etc). His stance is a foil stance. And what is more important: nobody ever used his DIY-techniques. They only exist in his booklet and may have existed in his short-living school or let us better say: he may have used them for his show events. No fencer ever used that system. Neither in GB, nor elsewhere in Europe. It has become quite well-known because of the internet and because people SEARCH für books (instead of getting real lessons by real fencing masters). The rationale for the existance of the foil parries is explained by Maestro Martinez (a "real" fencing master) in the introduction--dissimilar weapons engagement. Remember, Hutton was proposing a "swordfighting" technique, not just a fencing (sport) technique. You say his stance is a foil stance. How so? No fencer ever used that system. An overly strong statement. It can be disproven by demonstrating ONE fencer who used the method. There is Hutton. That's one. However, I assume you mean other than Hutton himself. Presumably there were fencing assistants and students who were trained in this method who at the very least were able to assist in bouts/demonstrations. Here are at least two. As to the scope of the methods application and popularity, I went looking for something that might shed some light and found this. "Historial Fencing Studies--The British Legacy" by John Clements. Clement's is of the opinion: This is speculative but not unreasonable (the demise of related method attributed to WWI), but suggests that modern practioners (Martinez says he is one) are endeavoring to recreate a practical sabre discipline for our own age, even if men are no longer customary to wearing such sidearms.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 22:34:44 GMT
Sorry, I disagree. No matter what John Clement says. (Maybe it's no coincidence that especially JC claims that Hutton is an early predecessor of activities JC did, too. I will not discuss this in this topic). Hutton's system was invented by Hutton. During his time sabre fencing was an active duelling and military art. What he invented was - well, I don't know. Maybe a show. Hutton DID arrange shows. Since combat sabre fencing was an active art at his time, there was no need for Hutton to invent it.
But anyway - if you like his style and you feel well practicing it, that is perfectly fine. I'm not that good with discussing difficult things in boards, especially in a foreign language, so please don't be angry that I have good reasons to believe that Hutton's system wasn't ever practised by anybody else for many decades - until he was rediscovered in the internet.
Fact: if someone wants to learn "real combat" sabre techniques, there is no need to invent it new or to copy Hutton's DIY-style, since the real 19th century style is practised today, still. Probably not in US, okay, but in Switzerland, Austria and Germany where we have an unbroken lineage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 23:02:45 GMT
Fact: if someone wants to learn "real combat" sabre techniques, there is no need to invent it new or to copy Hutton's DIY-style, since the real 19th century style is practised today, still. Probably not in US, okay, but in Switzerland, Austria and Germany where we have an unbroken lineage. Giraut, I appreciate your efforts to communicate in English. What German I used to know was acquired to be able to read scholarship in my field of study. But that was 35 years ago. You mention a work on sabre fencing ("Die Säbelfechtkunst" by Schulze), but there are no English translations available. Can you recommend other authors/historians? Then, I could try to find something in English. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 12:56:19 GMT
That is difficult, since academic fencing masters (like most maitre) didn't write books. They were and are busy with teaching ^^ There's a standard book about general Hiebfechten (cut fencing) in German speaking countries: ROUX: "Die Hiebfechtkunst: Eine Anleitung zum Lehren und Erlernen des Hiebfechtens aus der verhangenen und steilen Auslage mit Berücksichtigung des akad. Comments" reprint available via amazon.com. Though it is not a sabre book. Also interesting: Amberger: The Secret History of the Sword. Oh, Amberger. You might like to read in his website. Start with: www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/masters.htmlA good explanation of what I'm talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 3:42:55 GMT
I propose that this subject be moved to the "Western Martial Arts" section and continue on further as a thread on 19th and 20th century sabre-play. In support of that idea, I will start that process very shortly. I think it would be more appropriate and might gather the attention of more people who could contribute to this discussion and benefit from it.
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Post by alvin on Jan 12, 2009 5:00:29 GMT
An excellent proposal Sabreur. I am very interested in learning more about this topic from experts such as yourself. I have a great interest in this, although my "knowledge" is only from reading various period works on the subject. Lastima, I do not have the opportunity to obtain instruction from a Master here in Guatemala. If your new thread doesn't deteriorate into mindless blather about whether or not one system is legitimate compared to another, I believe that I, for one, will benefit greatly. Buena suerte.
Edit....I see that, while I was pecking away on this post, you have already begun the thread. Great start to a, hopefully, fruitful thread.
Again, buena suerte.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 16:48:06 GMT
I've made some photographs, showing the handle (? grip?) of that saber. As you can see, it's not a big one. A fencer with big hands may get problems. It has no difference between the quart- and the tierce-side, so both lefties and righties can use it. That makes it especially interesting, I think. Here are the pictures:
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