Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2008 6:20:21 GMT
It's important to me that any sword I own have a handle/grip which is shaped in a way which would allow me, from the instant it's picked up, and from feel alone, to know which way the edges are facing.
I'm talking mainly about a grip with an oval cross-section, which so few swords have. All Roman and Greek swords seem to be made with round, square or otherwise non-directional grips which would allow for easy twisting in the hand once the blood really started flying. And what if you're on a night raid and drop it, unable to see which way the edges are facing when you pick it back up? Needless to say, I'll probably be replacing the grip of any Roman sword I buy. But I thought I'd ask first if I was missing something about why this was. It seems impractical, yet for thousands and thousands of Roman soldiers over the many years, it didn't seem to hold them up from conquering the western world.
|
|
|
Post by shadowhowler on Nov 24, 2008 6:30:12 GMT
I think with the shorter style swords (gladius) it was a LOT easier to maintian control and direction of your blade regardless of what your doing with it. Also, they did a lot more stabbing and trusting then cutting... edge alignment was not as much of an issue. As to other weapons, I can't really answer... but there are some VERY informed forum members here that I'm sure can... and will.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2008 19:27:58 GMT
It’s probably because the gladius was a thrusting weapon rather then a slashing or cutting sword. It was used in conjunction the Scutum(the large roman shield), essentially the legionaries would push into the ranks of their enemies using their shields to defend themselves and use the gladius at waist level to stab in to the stomachs of there a opponents.
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Nov 24, 2008 19:32:51 GMT
Now, I'm not basing this on any actual research but I'm guessing that it's just improper historical research by the makers of these gladii. But I could be wrong.
Another possibility is that actual glaii where rather thin in the wooden pommel and guard meaning that one can feel the direction of the blade simply by feeling the guard/pommel against one's hand. Most gladii designed today are woefully inaccurate and end up as horrible swords.
It was Tacitus I believe who mentioned various ways of gladii use with his descriptions of battle - one I remember in particular is his description of the battle of watling street in 61 ad. Tacitus talks about the legionaires cutting the hamstrings of the Iceni and/or stabbing overhead with adownward attack into the necks and faces of their opponents. I may be attributing this to an incorrect author, however.
|
|
|
Post by alvin on Nov 24, 2008 19:35:34 GMT
Ole Big Rick can sure stick and cut with those new gladii ! ;D
PS - Hey Ramm - I didn't find anything in a quick search on the battle on Watling Street. Do you remember the complete address? I did find this on the Albion website that is a quote that mentions using the gladius for cutting.
"The Greek historian Dionysus of Halicarnassus (contemporary to Emperor Augustus 63 BC-14 AD) describes Roman tactics with swords against the Gauls in the 4th C BC. Dionysus describes events that is some 300 years earlier than his own times, but we might perhaps presume that the fighting techniques he describes were not anachronistic to his own period. It is during the late 1st C BC that the Mainz type Gladius developed from the longer Gladius Hispaniensis that the Romans adopted during the Punic wars. Both the longer Gladius Hispanienis and the Mainz type gladius were effective cutting swords, even if thrusting was a favoured tactic in close formations.
'...Holding their sword straight out, they would strike their opponents in the groin, pierce their sides, and drive their blows through their breasts into their vitals. And if they saw any of them keeping these parts of the body protected, they would cut the tendons of their knees or ankles and topple them to the ground roaring and biting their shields and uttering cries resembling the howling of wild beasts... ' "
|
|
|
Post by rammstein on Nov 24, 2008 19:58:23 GMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Watling_StreetMost people know of the battle, just not what it was called. I merely posted the above part about how gladii were used simply to prove that there were multiple uses other than stabbing at waist level.
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Nov 24, 2008 21:55:19 GMT
I didn't have any blood handy, and DJ wouldn't let me sacrifice one of the cats, so I used vegetable oil and motor oil.
My camera skills are lacking a bit, I meant to get better shots of me pouring the oil directly on the grip, I soaked em pretty good tho and my hand as well. I did note a bit of slipperiness, tho at no time did I feel in danger of losing my grip. I think this is because of the way the grip is made with that raised middle aiding the stability.
I have noticed my Gen2 gladii tending to want to turn in the cut due to their round shape. ShooterMike sanded his Gen2 Pompeii into a more stable oblong shape if I recall correctly.
As to dropping the sword in the dark, if the ground is even close to flat it seems like the blade would naturally land horizontal. Then again if it's that dark, it seems like I might just as easy grab the blade if I could find it at all.
That's just my take on it, other's experiences may vary.
Thanks to everyone for this discussion, these type weapons are often neglected and I find them fascinating
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2008 22:32:31 GMT
+1 for being crazy enough to oil your hands and cut for a demonstration. I'd be to afraid to do it for safety, and to afraid of the backlash for posting here LOL
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2008 0:12:27 GMT
Another possibility is that actual glaii where rather thin in the wooden pommel and guard meaning that one can feel the direction of the blade simply by feeling the guard/pommel against one's hand. Similar thought here. It seems a majority of Roman swords had guards that were at least somewhat (and sometimes very noticeably) oblong, giving a tactile reference point. Here's some good pics of originals in various conditions (some look to have reconstructed hilts, however): www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Attack.html
|
|
|
Post by shadowhowler on Nov 25, 2008 0:59:01 GMT
Ric, you are just plain awesome. +1 My man. ;D Thats why I love this place... someone asks a question about the hilt getting slippery with blood... and someone goes and pours oil all over the hilt and their hands and cuts with the sword to demonstrate. Just... awesome.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2008 21:14:55 GMT
RicWilly: Thanks for an awesome post. I guess that video definitively puts the issue to rest. Plus you had some good points in your post. Also appreciate your reviews of the swords. I think a spatha or gladius of some kind would be perfect for me as a first sword, with the handle modified to an oval cross-section shape.
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Nov 25, 2008 22:20:09 GMT
OC, thanks, I thought it was a bit nuts too. LOL Believe me if it I had felt at any time I was losing my grip, I would have stopped the testing. I have been supprised how good a hold one can get on this bronze grip from the first. Thanks, Howler, I too appriciate how the people test their weapons here, I have gained much information that way. Jeff, thanks, I agree the grips can be improved with a different shape. Here's one of my favorites tho a bit pricey. It has an exellent shaped grip. www.sword-buyers-guide.com/kris-cutlery-gladius-review.html
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 6:37:08 GMT
In De Re Militari Vegetius is extremely particular in specifying that the legionnaire should always thrust with the gladius and not cut. It makes sense when you think about the tight fighting formations the legions would fight in, and using those large shields effectively.
Also, having seen firsthand what Roman engineering is like I would bet that they figured out how to make the grip good to withstand all kinds of different factors and combinations of factors. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that they engineered a shape to the grip to allow the least bit of slippage when a hand was on it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 6:43:11 GMT
Something to keep in mind is that cutting humans with swords is an entirely different animal to cutting bottles/mats. When cutting at tendons (or any part really) like previously mentioned, the whole blade doesn't need to pass through the leg (or bodypart) - it just needs to cut a few centimeters into the surface to do damage, so slight turning in the hand wouldn't really make much of a difference.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 10:14:41 GMT
Excellent experiment Rickwilly. Karma +1.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 13:14:38 GMT
It's true that the romans used the gladuis mainly for thrusting when fighting in the shieldwall. But as soon as the formation broke in parts and every soldier was fighting all by himself, for example when tracking down escaping enemies, the glaius was used very often for cutting and slashing. Corpses of slain British found in maiden castle that the romans captured in 43 n. Chr prove that. Many were hacked apart or decapitated. I saw pictures of the 'left overs' in a book and I remember especially one skull with 7 huge gaps in it caused by a gladius. The skull was literally hacked into pieces.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 15:09:35 GMT
Yes, but the primary use of the gladius is in the tight formation, each man a bare foot or so from his mates on either side. The idea was to push, push into the opposing lines, shoving with the scutum while the ranks behind pushed against the ranks in front. Any enemies who fell would be trampled underfoot and finished off by the following ranks. Slashing cuts in such close quarters are as likely to injure friend as foe. Hence the gladius, a sword with a thin grip, but with large bulbous guard and pommel, perfect for thrust and withdraw. The Gladius makes even more sense when you remember that the other primary weapon of the Roman Soldier was the Pilum which was cast, then stick in the shield of the enemy, where the soft iron shaft would bend, dragging it downwards and exposing the man behind. This leaves him open to any number of attacks, but a quick thrust is probably the best one, and the hardest to guard against with four feet of heavy wood dangling out of your shield and slowing you down. (I'm speaking of the Imperial Army; Republican and Principate armies were somewhat different- and used the somewhat longer "Gladius Hispanienses" and "Fulham" styles. The true stereotypical Gladius is the "Pompeii" style, just over two feet of blade, acute point, straight blade sides, etc.) I've seen a Pompeii style gladius with the point built into a more acute diamond shape the last inch or two of blade, presumably to better pierce Maille.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2009 17:51:35 GMT
You're right. Still, the gladius was a highly effective cutting weapon, too. Especially the typus Mainz with it's broad and elegant blade could deliver shearing cuts and slashes. The Pompeii performed much worse than the typus Mainz but was better for mass production due to the simple form and didn't require high quality steel for the blade as did the typus Mainz. The long, slender tip of the typus Mainz was quite vulnerable and without excellent steel it would break or bend very easily. The broad, short tip of the Pompeii was strong enough even when low quality steel was used. The typus Fulham was basically a mix between both types and was a link in the development of the typus Pompeii.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2009 13:58:59 GMT
The Romans didn't appear to have any problems with their grips...barring historical inaccuracies, maybe the problem is within us. Not me, per se, but gladii users in general, although, I've never heard of this particular problem before...edge alignment on a gladius, I mean.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2009 18:53:28 GMT
Not ALL gladius grips are round. There are quite a few originals that have an oval grip. I saw a couple last wee ago in a museaum. Still, there are round grips so like Ebon said maybe we're just using the sword the wrong way.
|
|