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Post by bwaze on Nov 2, 2023 21:41:41 GMT
Received the new sword, directly from EU importer of Royal Armouries / Windlass swords, Marto - before they even gave me instructions on how to return the first one. So right now I have two Royal Armouries / Windlass 15th century two-handed swords! Double wielding! Right now there's rain and dark outside, so I can't make good photos from directly above for instance. To compare the second sword to the first one, I can go over the list of the issues I had with the first one: The list includes (issues from the first sword in the brackets) : - (Bent or crooked grip and crossbar portion of the sword - it is almost a perfect replica of a IX.1787 - the handle is bent at a similar angle!) - It now seems perfectly straight, at least from the direction the previous sword had a problem, and cross is on straight. - (Rotated handle - handle or grip is rotated, compared to crossbar and blade.) - Now completely the same, although it is rotated in the other direction. - (Excessively wavy and unevenly ground blade - it isn't just visibly wavy, it is very obvious even to touch when you for instance wipe the blade (noticed it right away when I wiped all the grease it ships in). The cutting edge also meanders left and right due to uneven grinds even though the blade is otherwise straight left to right.) - Blade is now less wavy, visibly and to the touch. But it is of course still wavy, midridge meanders and is more or less defined. And I have to add a new problems: - the blade goes in the scabbard in one direction only. On the previous sword it was a bit hard to put in the last few centimeters (although the scabbard is ridiculously excessively long, 8 cm longer than the blade). On the new sword the sword goes in only in one way - with Royal Armouries logo facing the stitching of the scabbard, and even that is very tight the last few centimeters. In the other direction it doesn't go in for the last few centimeters, at least not with the force I feel comfortable using sheating sword. - the blade is a bit bent after the grip in the direction of the flat of the blade. I can't make a good photo of that since I can't make a photo from a bit bigger distance from above due to rain outside. So... Progress? New sword to the left, old one to the right: Attachments:
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Post by takitam on Nov 2, 2023 22:32:17 GMT
Thanks for the report Blaz. What do you think of it now? Are you going to give them another chance? Have your impressions of the sword and the whole line improved or worsened? Well... I have to say I'm not surprised PS Still the best sword photographer on the interwebz.
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Post by bwaze on Nov 2, 2023 22:47:46 GMT
I don't think there will be a third chance, shipping is slowly becoming way more expensive than most people spend on a sword! I e-mailed them the issues with the second sword, and I'll see what they will say. And I'm nowhere near the level of this kind of photography: Albion Ljubljana by Søren Niedziella
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 3, 2023 14:18:47 GMT
Sad to hear that, but I am not that surprised honestly. Can't expect them to change their quality from one day to the next, my guess the same guys that make the 100$/€ swords make the 800$/€ ones, at least the blade looks similar. Still sad that it does not seem to work out so far. But the hilt issues truly surprise me, twice in a row crooked likely isn't a solitary issue.... Maybe the'll get a grip on it if enough people complain.
Me personally, I would have taken extra care to send a good replacement...Hope it doesn't get classified as "expectet quality, not a defect", especially for the price!
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Post by neuronic on Nov 3, 2023 15:37:53 GMT
The real surprise here is not Windlass still being Windlass, the real surprise is that Matt Easton still hasn't stepped away from this mess...
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Post by bwaze on Nov 3, 2023 15:48:31 GMT
I have received reply from Royal Armouries / Windlass EU importer, Marto.es that they agree that even the second sword has problems that classify it as a defect.
Through the whole process the original shop, Outfit4Events, and then Royal Armouries / Windlass EU importer, Marto.es were very fair, they answered quickly, and never tried to avoid their responsibilities, and actually apologized for inconveniences. So now both swords will go back. I really wanted this to work, and I was even prepared to take the sword as a project (although an expensive one) - if the issues were such I could do something about it. I was prepared to replace the grip, and even make a new scabbard, and I was even prepared to reprofile a blade a bit - make it a bit hollow ground (which Matt Easton talks about in his showcasing of this sword on Youtube, but there isn't even a hint of in either of the blades), and in the process perhaps grind out some waviness. But bent blades I can't do anything about. Swords clearly aren't the same as cheap Windlass ones of yesteryear. The goals are set quite high - all the swords from this collection have some complex shapes in their blades, hilts and grips. But on other hand, even if we disregard that they obviously often can't meet those goals, there are still areas that clearly show their very low budget heritage. For instance, would Albion Squire Line sword have a part that still shows it was made from a flat bar? Also, observe the difference in shapes of these two crossbars - and none of them actually replicates the spherical ends of the original. Scabbard is often cited as a big plus - it is included with these swords, but if you want one for (for instance) an Albion, it can cost you a lot - even as much as a sword itself! But looking closely - the scabbards Royal Armouries / Windlass swords, although better than the all leather ones they usually included, are by no means something I'd be satisfied with. For one thing, why are they almost 10 cm longer than the blade - and in the same time too tight, so much so that the other sword can't even be inserted in both directions? At their mouth they are also more than centimeter wider than the blade, which makes for a very sloppy fit, and the sword often looks askew in it. Also, after just several reinsertions the leather has obvious lines and cracks, and users have reported big flakes of shiny exterior falling off - non durable leather finish or even fake leather? I wonder if what we are seeing here isn't an attempt of Windlass making a midrange sword line, but more of a "everything is getting more expensive" new price level for a standard Windlass, and the rest will follow soon?
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 3, 2023 15:52:22 GMT
Nov 3, 2023 16:37:53 GMT 1 neuronic said: The real surprise here is not Windlass still being Windlass, the real surprise is that Matt Easton still hasn't stepped away from this mess... True, maybe he is betting on it only being teething problems? But then why sell, sorry but, garbage like this for 800$? I remember the Ribaldo went through a few transformations before LK released it, but here they might have gone directly to production. Or maybe Windlass was giving him selected good examples. Scaling up from one sample to mass production is bound to be hard. I still would have expected more after all the hype of a new premium line with Matt Easton. Though on the product pictures from some sellers you can see all of them seem to have problems like skewed hilts and pommels. We'll see how this goes on, but I have no high hopes. Either they need to bring the quality p or half the prices.
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Post by bwaze on Nov 3, 2023 16:16:48 GMT
I don't have high hopes for any changes. I'm sure most of the swords sold will just go to wall as a decoration.
There are almost no reviews of this line of swords - so most people will only see Matt Easton presenting them in a very similar fashion as his reviews (but those are clearly not reviews), and maybe an influencer or two on Youtube who got his copy for free, so he won't bother mentioning the downsides like exchanging the sword once or twice before the review, and even then he might downplay all the issues - so that he will surely be sent another sword for free when the next series comes out.
Also, am I too picky? Both of the swords I'm returning have not one but several issues that people have stated as the reason for returning the sword. On the other hand, a friend of mine said "yeah, but you can't even see the problem if you aren't squinting down the blade", so to him the swords look "organic, hand made, not like a recreation of a perfect geometry only a CNC mill can reproduce"? And stating "10% variations are perfectly normal for a hand reproduced item" - does that mean this sword can be anywhere from 130 to 160 cm long? Do we take the 10% allowance for the degrees the grip can be twisted, the blade can be bent, and does that mean 36 degrees either way or just 18 degrees either way?
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 3, 2023 16:46:55 GMT
I don't have high hopes for any changes. I'm sure most of the swords sold will just go to wall as a decoration. There are almost no reviews of this line of swords - so most people will only see Matt Easton presenting them in a very similar fashion as his reviews (but those are clearly not reviews), and maybe an influencer or two on Youtube who got his copy for free, so he won't bother mentioning the downsides like exchanging the sword once or twice before the review, and even then he might downplay all the issues - so that he will surely be sent another sword for free when the next series comes out. Also, am I too picky? Both of the swords I'm returning have not one but several issues that people have stated as the reason for returning the sword. On the other hand, a friend of mine said "yeah, but you can't even see the problem if you aren't squinting down the blade", so to him the swords look "organic, hand made, not like a recreation of a perfect geometry only a CNC mill can reproduce"? And stating "10% variations are perfectly normal for a hand reproduced item" - does that mean this sword can be anywhere from 130 to 160 cm long? Do we take the 10% allowance for the degrees the grip can be twisted, the blade can be bent, and does that mean 36 degrees either way or just 18 degrees either way? I wouldn't say your'e too picky. The LK Chens I have seen vary by max 5% in length, thickness and weight, but the hilts are straight and the rippling on the blade is minimal compared to Windlass. Also most of those are cheaper than these RA-Win collabs. Give me a few minutes and I'll look through the pics again, but off-center hilt= dealbreaker for me...Even if it was only 200$/€. So in my opinion: Not too picky for the pricepoint. EDIT: Nah, man. I could live with an uneven grind, but crooked hilts and blades are not for me. Historical accuracy well and good, but then who says the rotated grip didn't happen in the museum? It doesn't have to be perfect for me, but some things you can fix even on historical stuff in my opinion... Else all swords from earlier than 18th century should vary widely in steel composition too (I mean like mild steel, wrought iron and stuff).
BTW I hate this picture: I don't know, it does something to me psychologically. It weirds me out something fierce.
EDIT2: You might not see some defects, but the tilted grip you will feel for sure when you use it. The warped blade too, if it's bad enough.
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Post by bwaze on Nov 3, 2023 20:45:47 GMT
EDIT2: You might not see some defects, but the tilted grip you will feel for sure when you use it. The warped blade too, if it's bad enough. Yeah, on the first sword I can clearly feel the bend in the handle, sword feels almost like a sabre - you feel if the blade is pointing upwards or downwards. On the second sword I don't think there's enough of a bend sideways to be felt. About the photo - yeah, it is squished in the vertical, but it more clearly shows what you can see when looking down (or up) the central ridge of the blade. It's very hard to take photo of that, since the camera usually only has a portion of the blade in focus - especially with the blade this long.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 3, 2023 21:04:03 GMT
About the photo - yeah, it is squished in the vertical, but it more clearly shows what you can see when looking down (or up) the central ridge of the blade. It's very hard to take photo of that, since the camera usually only has aportion of the blade in focus - especially with the blade this long. Not saying it is bad, far from it, really shows what you mean. It just hurts me inside the brain.
I think even the rotated grip would throw my edge alignment, so I would have given both back for sure. Can you feel that unevenness/rotation? Unfortunate that the "better" sword has a warped blade.
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Post by bwaze on Nov 4, 2023 7:24:37 GMT
I think even the rotated grip would throw my edge alignment, so I would have given both back for sure. Can you feel that unevenness/rotation? Yeah, even if you’re not cutting the rotated grips on both swords are obvious, the angle of rotation isn’t small - crossguards are almost 30 centimetres long, so the ends end up quite far from where you expect them to be. With blade it’s a bit less obvious, it’s quite thick - for the most part of the blade it’s 6 mm, even quite close to the tip where the blade is narrow, so it has quite steep angles, it’s not easy to see if you have proper edge alignment. I of course haven’t done any cutting, the blades aren’t sharpened - but they are very close to the sharp, the second sword even more so, the “butter knife” edge rounding is really thin (0.2 mm), so sharpening these blades would be relatively easy. I’m really bummed even the replacement sword has too many issues. I really wanted a late 15th century great sword / two hander / oversized longsword / whatever this thing is. And it’s really a lot of money lost on shipping, about 260 EUR for four trips, this thing ships in two sturdy cardboard boxes + a nicely designed and printed but less sturdy one - the sword only weighs 2.2 kg, 2.6 kg with scabbard, but with boxes it’s about 10 kg. And the size, of course. I just hope I’m not the one covering that.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 4, 2023 8:14:06 GMT
And it’s really a lot of money lost on shipping, about 260 EUR for four trips, this thing ships in two sturdy cardboard boxes + a nicely designed and printed but less sturdy one - the sword only weighs 2.2 kg, 2.6 kg with scabbard, but with boxes it’s about 10 kg. And the size, of course. I just hope I’m not the one covering that. According to EU laws, if the item is defective, seller has to pay/refund transport and item cost in full. This should also apply to non-EU sellers, they would normally have to keep to the laws where the item is bought, not where they are. If you send it back because you don't like it, you have to pay of course (not sure, butb I read if you are doing it within 2 weeks, then it migh also be free for you if you don't want the item or something - but this doesn't matter here anyways), but they have agreed to both being defective, no? How is a cardboard box 7kg? For long swords the costly factor is the package size, it gets classified as "Sperrgut" - don't know the english word - if it's too long (like over 1 meter on the longest side, different limits for many postal services though) and the costs skyrocket, independant of weight.
Yeah, also very much bummed out at this, really liked the look of the 14th cen arming sword with the weird pommel but the pictures didn't look like the quality was right. Maybe they get it under control before people stop giving these swords a second chance.
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Post by eastman on Nov 4, 2023 16:13:59 GMT
"Sperrgut" looks to translate as "bulky goods" according to an online dictionary. Most US-based carriers would call that "Oversized" or a similar term when they jack the shipping price up.
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Post by bwaze on Nov 22, 2023 9:20:13 GMT
Conclusion for my purchase - on 11. November I packaged and sent both swords to Marto.es (postage paid by Marto), and today I received a complete refund, for sword and initial postage.
I still have tons of photos, especially of the first sword, I mainly posted issues. Anyone interested?
One area I haven't found info on before the purchase is whether "labels" on the blade - Royal Armouries and Windlass Steelcraft can be removed, either by acetone or with Scotchbrite.
And the answer is definite NO! Labels are neither screen printed nor shallow etched - they are deep laser engraved, and I guess you'd have to grind very deep to remove them - and with them being so close to the cross and in an area very sensitive to blade thickness I'd say it's impossible to remove them.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 22, 2023 12:24:12 GMT
How unfortunate. Laser engraving is pretty durable, polishing should be able to diminish it's clarity relatively quickly. To get it completely off you'd need to grind a bit, yes. Windlass has been using laser engraving for a while, the ones I have wouldn't need much to get rid of though, they aren't too deep and look pretty similar to yours. As soon as you get rid of the dark infill and the ridges on the sides, it will be barely visible. It only looks and feels deep because of the raised sides, at least on mine. A few passes with 600 - 1000grit should make it almost imperceivable beneath the scratch pattern already there.
Yeah, I am interested in the whole, although it seems you already were pretty thorough as pichtures go.
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Post by bwaze on Nov 22, 2023 16:50:37 GMT
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 22, 2023 17:30:27 GMT
That engraving is deeper for sure. To be honest they just should make the fittings from stainless, if they aren't able to keep them rust free. Yeah, it just looks like a 300$ Windlass. Meandering lines, little mistakes and grime/rust in every crevice. Grip wrap, scabbard and packaging look good though (I hate the typical Windlass cardboard sleeves).
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Post by bwaze on Nov 22, 2023 17:50:21 GMT
Yes, grip wrap was comfortable on both swords - some reviewers commented on a hard edges at leather ends (it isn't skived, just cut straight and butted), but mine were quite nicely done. But it just doesn't really look that authentic, especially with the glue visible.
Scabbard is of course much better than old Windlass scabbards - I have an old Windlass Medieval Falchion, and that leather scabbard with metal locket is hopeless. But even this one isn't really that great - it is 10 cm longer than the blade - it's very tight at the tip, so the sword was hard to insert (the second sword even only went in in one direction) - and at the same time very loose at the scabbard throat, so the sword usually leans on one side or the other, looking lopsided in scabbard ) - scabbard throat was about 1 cm wider than the blade. And the leather itself is I think some kind of fake leather that degrades very quickly - even after several insertions it looked really creased, and I have seen that other users reported large flakes of shiny outside portion just flaking off very soon.
I really don't know where does all the black stuff in hilt furniture grooves even comes from - it looks like it's intentional and not just rust or oxidation, very uniform, like at some point it was planned to have all the grooves blackened, but then at finishing stages they accidentally cleaned off half of it.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 22, 2023 18:19:05 GMT
I have that black stuff as well on a few more complex fittings. It was realatively easy to get off on some spots, on others it's really stuck. My guess it is compacted metal dust. The spots, where it was hard to remove had rust underneath, so it probably adhered to the rust on the surface, and I was not yet able to get all of it. But it does get easier to remove the longer it is soaked in oil.
Well, that's unfortunate to see that the scabbard has such issues. Underwhelming, especially if you think that you could get some Albions for the same price.
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