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Post by Lord Newport on Sept 7, 2023 2:28:23 GMT
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Sept 7, 2023 2:31:12 GMT
Very cool find!
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Post by mrstabby on Sept 7, 2023 13:12:08 GMT
When such things turn up, I always wonder about the owner. How the items came to be there, why were they never retrieved, not found for 100s of years or, in this case, almost 2 millennia. There was a Winchester Model 1873 that was found leaning against a tree in the middle of the desert. Who was the person leaving a gun in the middle of nowhere and why. Every find belonged to someone, and we know nothing about them. Maybe it wasn't rebels but someone thinking "I'll bury those here for someone in 1900 years to find"  Seriously though, that's a really unique find with everything still relatively intact, especially the leather doesn't last very long normally. Someone used up a few leprechauns worth of luck to find this, and we were lucky that the finder wasn't some greedy bastard secretly pawning them off to soem rich collector. |
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eastman
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Post by eastman on Sept 7, 2023 18:19:03 GMT
the rifle left against the tree hadn't been there all that long. There is a museum in Cody WY dedicated to "dug up" guns. It doesn't take many years for the tree to start to engulf the rifle. Some of the older Winchester rifles were notorious for breaking inner action parts rendering the rifles useless. The annoyed owners either smashed them in anger or just abandoned them. The "tree rifle" was probably found in a barn somewhere and left there within a year of when it was found. (According to the curator of the dug up guns museum)
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 11, 2024 17:59:50 GMT
When such things turn up, I always wonder about the owner. How the items came to be there, why were they never retrieved, not found for 100s of years or, in this case, almost 2 millennia. There was a Winchester Model 1873 that was found leaning against a tree in the middle of the desert. Who was the person leaving a gun in the middle of nowhere and why. Every find belonged to someone, and we know nothing about them. Maybe it wasn't rebels but someone thinking "I'll bury those here for someone in 1900 years to find" Seriously though, that's a really unique find with everything still relatively intact, especially the leather doesn't last very long normally. Someone used up a few leprechauns worth of luck to find this, and we were lucky that the finder wasn't some greedy bastard secretly pawning them off to soem rich collector. Used by Judean Rebels, captured, made, or bought before the major conflict with the Romans. Stashed away for for future use, or stashed by survivors..those who may have escaped, or hoped to continue the fight. |
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 11, 2024 18:15:48 GMT
I saw this when it first came out in the news...but I think this needs some discussion...and maybe some understanding that there was variances in roman blades that we are not privy to...
At least 2 of them defy modern descriptions of Roman swords. It quite upends some of what we think of in terms of Roman blades based on previous examples:
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 11, 2024 18:24:17 GMT
Look at the ring Pommel!
And how thin and pointy this one is, also flat pommel.
One more pommel pic, only one has a ball, 2 were flat, and the ring pommeled one was not in the pic.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 11, 2024 18:50:23 GMT
When such things turn up, I always wonder about the owner. How the items came to be there, why were they never retrieved, not found for 100s of years or, in this case, almost 2 millennia. There was a Winchester Model 1873 that was found leaning against a tree in the middle of the desert. Who was the person leaving a gun in the middle of nowhere and why. Every find belonged to someone, and we know nothing about them. Maybe it wasn't rebels but someone thinking "I'll bury those here for someone in 1900 years to find" Seriously though, that's a really unique find with everything still relatively intact, especially the leather doesn't last very long normally. Someone used up a few leprechauns worth of luck to find this, and we were lucky that the finder wasn't some greedy bastard secretly pawning them off to soem rich collector. Used by Judean Rebels, captured, made, or bought before the major conflict with the Romans. Stashed away for for future use, or stashed by survivors..those who may have escaped, or hoped to continue the fight. Would that rebel group be the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea? |
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 11, 2024 19:24:07 GMT
Used by Judean Rebels, captured, made, or bought before the major conflict with the Romans. Stashed away for for future use, or stashed by survivors..those who may have escaped, or hoped to continue the fight. Would that rebel group be the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea? I know it's a "Monty" joke, but I don't think they had a name. The leaders were Eleazar ben Simon, Joshua ben Zafia and Niger the Perean ( from Perea. Trans-Jordan), and Simon bar Giora. There was too much infighting to have a united front. The first great victory at Beth Horon was the last major victory....the rest was downhill.
Edit: They could also be from the Bar Koziba ( Bar Kochba) revolt.
In any case, I hope the find broadens the perspective on Roman swords.
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Post by larason2 on Jul 11, 2024 20:46:34 GMT
Roman swords were quite varied, and I think this would particularly be the case in palestine (as the Romans called that area). The Romans were the first to give every soldier (that is, each legionary) a sword, but at the time, a sword was still worth a year's wages, so not everyone had one. Still, the Romans kept weapons of defeated peoples, and early in the first century, the Romans had multiple campaigns in Germania. They probably also armed other soldiers, like leaders of the auxilliary, who accompanied them everywhere. Plus, local leaders directed local blacksmiths to make swords, and each major centre had a slightly different style. The swords rebels managed to pick up or steal were probably not the highest quality ones available. If a sword broke at the tip, it was usually reground to be usable. So these swords are probably from a mix of sources, I'd wager at least one was a Celtic sword from Germania (the Celts were expert sword smiths, and their pieces exhibited much more variety than the Roman standard ones). Overall, a really cool find, I hope they're able to shed more light on what these looked like!
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Jul 11, 2024 21:33:12 GMT
I don’t know much about swords from the time but that’s a really cool find. But some of you started calling them Roman blades. The first part of the ops post said they are Roman ERA blade not Roman blades. So as someone else said the Romans were wide spread and these swords could have been made somewhere else or locally. Haven’t read the attached articles yet though.
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 11, 2024 22:44:00 GMT
Used by Judean Rebels, captured, made, or bought before the major conflict with the Romans. Stashed away for for future use, or stashed by survivors..those who may have escaped, or hoped to continue the fight. Would that rebel group be the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea? Questioning the "Roman" attribution of the swords as naive, were any of those organizations supplied from Parthia, to inconvenience Rome? |
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 12, 2024 8:18:48 GMT
Would that rebel group be the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea? Questioning the "Roman" attribution of the swords as naive, were any of those organizations supplied from Parthia, to inconvenience Rome? It's fair to question if all were sourced from dead Romans after most of the Syrian Legion were slaughtered at Beth Horon, the capture of he Jerusalem Garrison, or by trade from somewhere else. The same thing could be said about the Syrian based legion who got Provincially made swords. Do we really know what they all looked like?
But that was not even questioned until you raised the legitimate issue of origin. Instead it was a silly joke from a movie by the other poster who's screen name is very apropos.
I remember in Josephus ( "Wars of the Jews") there is mention of the swords being made for Romans as part of the quota required from Judea, but they were made with small defects that would be rejected by the Roman army, but still usable for battle. ( there was at least some some planing there). So there were obviously forges in Judea allowed for imperial use. Swords could have also been smuggled in from Babylonia where there was a Large Hebrew population ( and autonomy under the Exilarch who kept them in line).
EDIT: I am trying to find Parthian style swords, just for comparison, if anyone comes up with something else please post:
4 Parthian Swords from the national Museum of Iran ( Bastan)
Another style of Parthian Sword
Parthanian Dagger:
One supposed example of a Parthian sword :
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 12, 2024 8:37:06 GMT
In my opinion I's all conjecture unless there is a name or something on the sword. All could-have-beens.
And it's always funny to me when people think of the past as a uniform block where everyone used the same type of gear. We have like a percent of a percent of swords that survived the milennia, this will only show what existed in the biggest numbers. Also the romans were very good at collecting valuables from battlefields - which would even include enemy or broken swords to be reforged.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 12, 2024 13:07:51 GMT
In my opinion I's all conjecture unless there is a name or something on the sword. All could-have-beens.
And it's always funny to me when people think of the past as a uniform block where everyone used the same type of gear. We have like a percent of a percent of swords that survived the milennia, this will only show what existed in the biggest numbers. Also the romans were very good at collecting valuables from battlefields - which would even include enemy or broken swords to be reforged.
It's going to take time to analyze them properly, the Roman Pilum found in the same cave, and other articles ( coins, etc.) found in that cave, as well as other multiple caves in the area is well documented to be used by rebel holdouts during the first and second revolt against Rome.
Archeology is NOT an exact science, and governments have agendas that color what they sponsor. The last time I talked to an Archeologist face to face ( Dr. Eilat Mazar of blessed Memory), she refused to talk further when I mentioned the Temple mount had to be by by the Shiloach / Silwan spring ( afraid of .gov over there).
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 12, 2024 13:30:00 GMT
The last time I talked to an Archeologist face to face ( Dr. Eilat Mazar of blessed Memory), she refused to talk further when I mentioned the Temple mount had to be by by the Shiloach / Silwan spring ( afraid of .gov over there).
The whole area is ugly business and charged beyond belief. I find it crazy that you can't talk about such things without ruffling feathers everywhere. Can't get anywhere new without discourse.... Nothing to discuss here though.
Weird you can still find stuff like this, I guess it's just the different geology, ecology and inhabitation. In central europe there aren't many caves that have never been gone through, the swords would also never have lasted this long in the wet conditions around - living here an never have been to arid/desert regions far away from inhabitation I can't really imagine (was very weird going to Berlin where everything is flat and in the tower you can see the whole city while I can barely see 3km because of mountains at home). The best thing you find here are boring old bones - if you are lucky because these also don't last that well in wet caves. I remember this story where a cave was visited a few times by cavers - had bones in it. People thought "Meh, animal bones" until someone realized these bones were very old human bones, suddenly it was a big new discovery.
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 12, 2024 15:28:12 GMT
Used by Judean Rebels, captured, made, or bought before the major conflict with the Romans. Stashed away for for future use, or stashed by survivors..those who may have escaped, or hoped to continue the fight. Would that rebel group be the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea? Would that rebel group be the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea? I know it's a "Monty" joke, but I don't think they had a name. The leaders were Eleazar ben Simon, Joshua ben Zafia and Niger the Perean ( from Perea. Trans-Jordan), and Simon bar Giora. There was too much infighting to have a united front. The first great victory at Beth Horon was the last major victory....the rest was downhill.
Edit: They could also be from the Bar Koziba ( Bar Kochba) revolt.
In any case, I hope the find broadens the perspective on Roman swords.
FWIW, while Life of Brian is a masterpiece of satirical genius, the insurgencies from Judea becoming a province until the end of the First Jewish War had their deepest roots in Galilee. IMHO, organization names like Galilean United Freedom Front and Fighters Utterly Cleansing Kinneret should have been included. Questioning the "Roman" attribution of the swords as naive, were any of those organizations supplied from Parthia, to inconvenience Rome? It's fair to question if all were sourced from dead Romans after most of the Syrian Legion were slaughtered at Beth Horon, the capture of he Jerusalem Garrison, or by trade from somewhere else. The same thing could be said about the Syrian based legion who got Provincially made swords. Do we really know what they all looked like?
But that was not even questioned until you raised the legitimate issue of origin. Instead it was a silly joke from a movie by the other poster who's screen name is very apropos.
I remember in Josephus ( "Wars of the Jews") there is mention of the swords being made for Romans as part of the quota required from Judea, but they were made with small defects that would be rejected by the Roman army, but still usable for battle. ( there was at least some some planing there). So there were obviously forges in Judea allowed for imperial use. Swords could have also been smuggled in from Babylonia where there was a Large Hebrew population ( and autonomy under the Exilarch who kept them in line).
EDIT: I am trying to find Parthian style swords, just for comparison, if anyone comes up with something else please post:
4 Parthian Swords from the national Museum of Iran ( Bastan)
Another style of Parthian Sword
Parthanian Dagger:
One supposed example of a Parthian sword :
My post was a tongue-in-cheek current events reference, but also intended to remind readers that the area around the Jordan River has been a pot stirred by powerful outside interests as far back as we have history to read. In the case in question, wherever they were obtained from, weapons used by Jewish insurgents against the Romans likely might have been financed with state funds from Seleucia or private donations from Alexandria, Cyrene, and even Rome itself.
All that said, automatically assuming a history for the swords before any tests are even run doesn't impress me as responsible archaeology.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 13, 2024 17:04:32 GMT
The last time I talked to an Archeologist face to face ( Dr. Eilat Mazar of blessed Memory), she refused to talk further when I mentioned the Temple mount had to be by by the Shiloach / Silwan spring ( afraid of .gov over there).
The whole area is ugly business and charged beyond belief. I find it crazy that you can't talk about such things without ruffling feathers everywhere. Can't get anywhere new without discourse.... Nothing to discuss here though.
Weird you can still find stuff like this, I guess it's just the different geology, ecology and inhabitation. In central europe there aren't many caves that have never been gone through, the swords would also never have lasted this long in the wet conditions around - living here an never have been to arid/desert regions far away from inhabitation I can't really imagine (was very weird going to Berlin where everything is flat and in the tower you can see the whole city while I can barely see 3km because of mountains at home). The best thing you find here are boring old bones - if you are lucky because these also don't last that well in wet caves. I remember this story where a cave was visited a few times by cavers - had bones in it. People thought "Meh, animal bones" until someone realized these bones were very old human bones, suddenly it was a big new discovery.
Yah one minute she was agreeing with my reading of Cassius Dio, the next walking away...but her husband ( also an archeologist) died young, and while she was in her 60's when she passed, I think she served her purpose in terms of her excavations of the City of David ( the old Jebusite hill), and her attributions of a large complex who's south eastern edge sat on the only spring within 5 Kilometers.
There is a lot of religion, politics, and tourist money at stake...too much for actually looking into historical and traditional sources.
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izzy
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Post by izzy on Jul 13, 2024 18:56:09 GMT
Would that rebel group be the Judean People's Front, the Judean Popular People's Front, or the People's Front of Judea? I know it's a "Monty" joke, but I don't think they had a name. The leaders were Eleazar ben Simon, Joshua ben Zafia and Niger the Perean ( from Perea. Trans-Jordan), and Simon bar Giora. There was too much infighting to have a united front. The first great victory at Beth Horon was the last major victory....the rest was downhill.
Edit: They could also be from the Bar Koziba ( Bar Kochba) revolt.
In any case, I hope the find broadens the perspective on Roman swords.
FWIW, while Life of Brian is a masterpiece of satirical genius, the insurgencies from Judea becoming a province until the end of the First Jewish War had their deepest roots in Galilee. IMHO, organization names like Galilean United Freedom Front and Fighters Utterly Cleansing Kinneret should have been included. It's fair to question if all were sourced from dead Romans after most of the Syrian Legion were slaughtered at Beth Horon, the capture of he Jerusalem Garrison, or by trade from somewhere else. The same thing could be said about the Syrian based legion who got Provincially made swords. Do we really know what they all looked like?
But that was not even questioned until you raised the legitimate issue of origin. Instead it was a silly joke from a movie by the other poster who's screen name is very apropos.
I remember in Josephus ( "Wars of the Jews") there is mention of the swords being made for Romans as part of the quota required from Judea, but they were made with small defects that would be rejected by the Roman army, but still usable for battle. ( there was at least some some planing there). So there were obviously forges in Judea allowed for imperial use. Swords could have also been smuggled in from Babylonia where there was a Large Hebrew population ( and autonomy under the Exilarch who kept them in line).
EDIT: I am trying to find Parthian style swords, just for comparison, if anyone comes up with something else please post:
4 Parthian Swords from the national Museum of Iran ( Bastan)
Another style of Parthian Sword
Parthanian Dagger:
One supposed example of a Parthian sword :
My post was a tongue-in-cheek current events reference, but also intended to remind readers that the area around the Jordan River has been a pot stirred by powerful outside interests as far back as we have history to read. In the case in question, wherever they were obtained from, weapons used by Jewish insurgents against the Romans likely might have been financed with state funds from Seleucia or private donations from Alexandria, Cyrene, and even Rome itself.
All that said, automatically assuming a history for the swords before any tests are even run doesn't impress me as responsible archaeology.
Despite my initial reaction, I actually accept the argument that it's wiser to wait, and the 3 swords that are not what people would think as typical Roman style for the time period(s). The question is did the Roman Legions actually use them...or was it Auxilia, Judean forged ( for the legion, or their own army), or something else entirely. It's also a question if these are from the first revolt, or from over 50 years later in the second ( Bar Koziba / Bar Kochba) revolt?
We do know there were large amounts of arms intended for Roman forces captured nearby in the first revolt from the garrison in Masada as well as Jerusalem, and after the battle in Beth Horon in the north. The very cave they were found in had Hebrew inscriptions dated to the first Revolt ( last days of the 2nd Temple Period). Yet one coin dated form the second revolt was also found in the same cave.
In any case, I think it would be a good thing if we find examples that look similar to the 3 swords in question, that would help clarify matters...my intent in posting a small amount of Parthian swords does not "prove or disprove" either you or I. But if anyone could come up with an example, it wold give your words more weight.
Maybe this is a more balanced article on the swords, where Identification of 3 of 4 swords as "Roman" had more to do with length of the Spatha, and not hilt shape or construction:
and
"The swords had well-fashioned handles made of wood or metal. The length of the blades of three swords was 60–65 cm, their dimensions identifying them as Roman spatha swords. The fourth one was shorter with c. 45 cm long blade, identified as a ring-pommel sword.
Closer examination of the swords at the Antiquities Authority confirmed that these were standard swords employed by the Roman soldiers stationed in Judea."
Do the swords need more study and analysis? YES.
Should they have made the announcement before going over the swords for a few years ( government work) ? Maybe, Maybe not. That depends on just how many finds ( of lesser preservation) the Israeli Antiquity authority is hording /holding that might have been used to compare to the current find.
---------------
And now to the side show:
I have noticed very clearly many in this forum are "Monty Python" fans. Especially by the ubiquitous use of the word "Semprini".
While I watched re-runs of "flying circus" when I was young, I find "The Life of Brian" and "The Meaning of Life" movies to be just ugly and insulting. I could never finish watching them, even for free. Obviously your welcome to your opinion on the movie(s), as am I. Further it was NOT YOU that made the reference, and I was clear on that.
A lot of Irish Blood in the USA...should other members bring some Monty Python jokes about the Irish when we talk about Swords in Ireland?
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Post by larason2 on Jul 13, 2024 19:06:48 GMT
Well it's an interesting discussion anyway. I read Yohanan Aharoni's book "Archaeology of the Land of Israel," and I found it very interesting. He also died young, apparently. I'm not an archaeologist, but I find it interesting, and I've read a fair bit about it. I think you have to if you love ancient swords! There's a lot we don't know, but since they're burial goods, quite a lot of swords have been preserved for our study.
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