|
Post by mrstabby on May 18, 2023 15:01:01 GMT
I wonder how the EDTA (or any other chelator) would act in the presence of other metals, like a silver inlay. I bet it would get damaged as well. It would surely eat away at anything containing copper. EDTA likes iron and copper better than silver, still I wonder if noble metals wouldn't get some pitting as well. For time reduction, the EDTA should work much better when its warm, I think even at 50°C the reaction would speed up significantly (it depends on what temperature your test was done, but if it was done at 20-25°C I bet you could maybe even half the time by heating it to 50°C). But I don't know how warm the agar can get until it's not gel any longer. Something worth trying would be a different holding material, like a polymer instead of the agar, then you could heat it better. Some newer gels can be stable beyond 100°C. The gel process is applied hot, at the boiling point of the Agar gel No, I mean keeping it hot, like in an oven.
|
|
|
Post by ipostswords on May 26, 2023 6:14:57 GMT
The gel process is applied hot, at the boiling point of the Agar gel No, I mean keeping it hot, like in an oven. Ah, thats definitely outside the scope of my current setup - and likely not applicable to any swords with organics on them like wooden or leather hilts - but yes, a heated environment would definitely speed up the reaction. One thing I CAN do is use localised heat via heat gun - I can run a test using my hot air soldering system.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 26, 2023 16:38:31 GMT
Something like a hotplate used for smartphone repair would probably work well, and I think you wouldn't even need that much heat to make a significant enough difference.Good point about the leather, 40-50°C shouldn't be too bad on the leather and wood, especially if it is concentrated on the blade. You could put a temperature probe near the guard, and as long as the blade there does not go over 50°C, it should be fine for the grip, unless it is made with something like tar or skin glue, those might need lower than 40°C.
Something I'd be interested in is, what the EDTA would do around etchings, layered steels or a hamon, I mean really thin stuff can't feel with a fingernail. Since it still relies on dissolving parts of the metal, my guess is it will do something there as well. It's slow speed might be a positive here though, you can better judge when to stop. With citric acid on a sponge, the rust is gone very fast, so there is not much time to say "this is enough".
|
|
Ouroboros
Member
Imperial, Mysterious In Amorous Array
Posts: 570
|
Post by Ouroboros on May 29, 2023 16:38:38 GMT
My box of EDTA arrived today. Will post my experiments as I bumble my way through agaragar corrosion removal and into soap making. Just wanted to thank the OP and those who have contributed so far.
|
|
Ouroboros
Member
Imperial, Mysterious In Amorous Array
Posts: 570
|
Post by Ouroboros on Jun 2, 2023 16:07:36 GMT
So. Agaragar is fun. EDTA is interesting suff indeed! It seems an ideal suspension method for a chelating agent like this edta. The stuff sticks and flows in liquid form and can be removed easily in its gel form. Its thermal reversible so microwaving small bits of set gel and doing applications across time is easy. Cleanup seems easy enough. Just remember to neutralize the area then clean of any remaining residue lest you encounter black staining as the reaction continues on into the night ... (see below) It even makes a nice gummy bear (with the inclusion of locust bean gum for stretchy chewyness and flavour + medicinal nomnomnoms). Do not need edta for medicinal gummies. Embedded rust in stamps and numbers is a pain to clean. This gel made it simple. Heres a preview of me lifting the rust from the serial number area. Fig 0.0: 60 min after applying the second application serial numbers are almost clean Fig 0.1: serial number, no red rust.
|
|
|
Post by ipostswords on Jun 3, 2023 7:38:23 GMT
So. Agaragar is fun. EDTA is interesting suff indeed! It seems an ideal suspension method for a chelating agent like this edta. The stuff sticks and flows in liquid form and can be removed easily in its gel form. Its thermal reversible so microwaving small bits of set gel and doing applications across time is easy. Cleanup seems easy enough. Just remember to neutralize the area then clean of any remaining residue lest you encounter black staining as the reaction continues on into the night ... (see below) It even makes a nice gummy bear (with the inclusion of locust bean gum for stretchy chewyness and flavour + medicinal nomnomnoms). Do not need edta for medicinal gummies. Embedded rust in stamps and numbers is a pain to clean. This gel made it simple. Heres a preview of me lifting the rust from the serial number area. Fig 0.0: 60 min after applying the second application serial numbers are almost clean Fig 0.1: serial number, no red rust. Glad to see it worked for you. Yes, you need to thoroughly clean the area after removing the gel - I use paper towels and a lot of alcohol / industrial methylated spirits for flat surfaces, or alcohol and a bristle brush for things like engravings, to make sure the surface doesnt have any residual EDTA or agar. I then apply protectants. I havent found it necessary to do a specific neutralisation step if I thoroughly clean with solvents, though.
|
|
|
Post by fataliac on Jul 12, 2023 0:08:03 GMT
ipostswords, I have seen your video several times and am a subscriber, and have quite a bit of experience using Evaporust on some of my most badly rusted antique swords. (The ones that were so badly rusted that they looked like a "Cheeto"). It is a great product, and I'm frankly surprised that there is not more discussion about this in the sword collecting community. I've seen comments about the "water line", and "it turns the metal grayish", etc... all somewhat true. That's because at the molecular level of the surface, all the microscopic surface rust pits are "cleaned" out and scatter the light differently, like a CD. This may be difficult to notice on that blade because of the even gel method you used to apply it rather than immersion. (very nice piece, btw!) My personal preference is to only use Evaporust on the worst-case, crusty, "Cheeto" blades and to use a certain method. I recommend that once a blade is deemed so bad that chemical treatment is necessary to stabilize the metal, that one immerses the blade in Evaporust for no more than 10 minute intervals at a time, and rinse off and clean in between. Repeat as needed only until the rust is at a manageable level where good old elbow grease, oil and protective polish can take over. In my recent case, only 3 times were necessary. It's a carefully orchestrated balance to maintain original historical patina and sheen, while stopping the active rust on badly neglected blades that otherwise should've been cared for, and stabilize that metal from further immediate damage. Here is my most recent preservation using Evaporust. Ames M1860 Cavalry, dated 1863 (with regimental markings and original service sharpened) Some swords are in such bad shape, that the metal MUST be stabilized immediately. While keeping in mind of course, that we want to restore these in an ethical, responsible and reasonable manner.
|
|
|
Post by fataliac on Jul 12, 2023 1:32:55 GMT
One more caveat I want to add, is to NEVER use Evaporust or any similar type of chemical on a blade that has any type of decorative blued panel or otherwise... it'll take that right off... because those decorative surfaces are basically manipulations of surface iron oxides, which is what these chemicals interact with. Straight acid etchings will be ok because that's an actual removal of material, but those decorative tempered blued panels applied on some high status swords are a no go. Also, if you have a plated blade, the chemical will technically not harm the plating itself, but if the steel substrate is compromised, then the plating will obviously peel off because it has no foundation.
|
|