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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 14, 2022 2:34:11 GMT
It absolutely makes sense. A well balanced heavier sword can have a better handling than a badly balanced light sword. Antique sabers have a very thick blade at the guard, same principle. Magnets are an interesting idea for experiments with mass distribution. I just tried it with my m1906 US cav. repro with a magnetic steel guard and my m1840 repro with brass guard on the blade at the guard. Much less than 5 oz but it I can feel a difference in handling. Thank you for the idea! I experimented much with grip band for thicker and better ergonomic formed grips. That can help too. I assume some fancy repros now have nightmares about falling in our hands... (Resistance is futile!)  |
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gorr
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Post by gorr on Nov 14, 2022 11:26:03 GMT
I was inspired in this direction from reading threads posted over the years here about altering pommels (plus or minus) to modify performance, and mass distribution in general, but the penny didn't drop till I was looking at the Princess of Wales saber and saw the massive squarish tail end of the hilt. I said, "that has to be for balance", and the neurons started firing.
I don't think magnets have as much density as the stick-on wheel weights, plus the stick-ons are manufactured to different weight specifications and will fit flat inside the steel guard of my Thompson. But the magnets are so easy to apply. I used jacketed pistol bullets (tips) in a latex glove with tape for my first experiment.
Hope springs eternal, and I'm hoping I can improve this sword, my technique and practice, and my knowledge base. Even 2 out of 3 ain't bad!
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 14, 2022 12:18:56 GMT
Giving more weight to the pommel is not the best solution.
I know terribly handling results of counterbalancing a heavy blade with a heavy pommel, feels like swinging an dumbbell that tires your arm extremely.
Adding more weight to the blade near the hand or the (cross)guard is usually better and also not too much weight, because it's a tradeoff.
Loosing weight at the foible is also good but not so easy to make.
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gorr
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Post by gorr on Nov 14, 2022 16:33:18 GMT
I had not grasped that "dumbbell" factor. I'm trying different positions for the wheel weights now, based on your remarks. Double sided tape is holding them for the time being. I can always attach them directly to the bowl hilt using existing holes and chicago screws, just like my martingale.
This is a lot of fun for me, and I really appreciate your comments, AndiTheBarvarian, thanks!
gorr
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 14, 2022 17:28:24 GMT
Your idea with the magnets is soo simple but I hadn't it yet, thanks again. I only tried it with better balanced swords/sabers today, but I'll test it on worse balanced ones soon. My Windlass 1860 Union Officers repro is on the "sharpened crowbar" side. I knew antique sabers had blades with 1 cm and more thickness just along a handbroad above the guard. I didn't think of simulating this with weights or magnets. Could be a bladecatcher for your opponent's blade too!  |
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Post by gorr on Nov 14, 2022 20:07:09 GMT
LOL your blade catcher made me think electromagnet for some reason. Can you imagine hitting a button on the hilt which turns on the current, and your foe’s blade is bonded to yours! Silly.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 14, 2022 21:06:49 GMT
I reduced the foible on my Windlass M1860 Officer repo from 3.5 mm to 2.8. My goal is 2.5 mm, but that is of low priority now. That only moved the PoB a fraction, from 6.625” to 6.5” and the weight reduction was too small for my scale to pick up. That was a great deal of work and the figures don’t support the effort but the handling did improve. I also reshaped the grip using rescue tape. Andi is a big fan of tape and prefers grip band. The factory version of this sword is horrible in its handling. At least those modifications make it useable. I just this minute stuck magnets on the pommel using the tang, the rest is brass. I have not had time to investigate further, not even the magnets weight, but the PoB moved back to 5.875”. I’ll investigate further, time permitting.
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 14, 2022 22:39:46 GMT
Don't overly fixate on PoB. It's really not that important. There are a few videos floating around that explain why much better than I can. Go by hand-feel - the weight of the blade should "feel" like it's around the CoP (generally). I love the way Toby Capwell describes it: heavy in the right way, light in the right way. Move the sword in the way you want it to move and try to feel where the extra or insufficient weight is sitting; add and remove accordingly. A lot of this is subjective and dependent on your goals and how you want to configure your sword.
Swords need to:
Move quickly in different actions to effectively defend and offend.
Hit with sufficient force.
Have the type of edge/tip appropriate to the type of target it will encounter.
Not break in the process.
Please keep us updated on the process! Heavy pommels on sabers are a thing! Happy experimenting! I almost bought a Thompson Saber myself for tinkering, but I put it off so long, I just decided to save for the LK Chen 1860.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 15, 2022 4:22:29 GMT
You can attach the magnets on the blade itself once unsheathed, that simulates the strongly tapering thick blade base at the guard of the antiques.
PoB isn't that important but the degree of change is interesting.
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Post by pgandy on Nov 15, 2022 21:31:01 GMT
I don’t consider the PoB critical but when buying a new blade it gives me some idea of what to expect, a chopper or a fencing epee so to speak. When I see a PoB of a potential sword out there at 6½” I think twice. And conversely if I want a chopper and see 2” I would write that one off. The original 6.625” on that M1860 Windlass is a bit far out to be a docile fencing sword, although I knew it was out there when buying, but being a Windlass not exactly how much. I have to admit it’s a good cutter and wouldn’t be all that bad from horse if avoiding a melee. As I said, with a thinner foible and better shaped grip improved the handling, but it still has a way to go.
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Post by pgandy on Nov 16, 2022 17:27:59 GMT
It just occurred to me that you could try a weighted glove, wristband, or loaded sword knot and test weight in all kinds of swords. Anybody try this? I didn’t think a weighted glove would work. But with such a simple test I gave it a go. Not having a weighted glove, at least in the sense that I consider them, I substituted a mail glove and at one point stuck a magnet on it. The results were as predicted, more fatigue, and possibly a little slower movement, with no apparent improvement in handling. As I had gone that far I used my leather fencing gauntlet and again as predicted there was no difference in handling although it was more comfortable. I used Windlass’ OM M1860 sabre. |
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Post by pgandy on Nov 16, 2022 19:26:59 GMT
The mail glove weighs .61 kg, the weights gross .06 kg. The scale that I now use has increments of .01 kg. The more sensitive scale died and I have not replaced it.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 16, 2022 20:02:55 GMT
Adding 2 lb to your left boot will not change a swords handling. Adding 2 oz somewhere on the blade will. Or at the guard or to hell at the pommel! |
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 16, 2022 20:37:08 GMT
Try it and tell us how it works! |
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Post by pgandy on Nov 16, 2022 20:55:26 GMT
That’s 21.5 oz I think. Might be too much? Is the leather gauntlet that heavy? Hope I’m not being pushy so you throw the gauntlet down (haha) , I’d lose that challenge for sure. Couldn’t resist. Thanks pgandy! 21.5 oz. is correct. The leather .06 kg.  |
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 16, 2022 21:05:51 GMT
No problem, just sharing experience, knowledge and impressions.
I personally don't like a mathematical approach to sword handling.
I prefer descriptions of impressions in words.
Maybe I'm just too lazy to read 8 pages of theoretical stuff about mathephysical 0,0003 differences in a foreign language.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 16, 2022 21:22:48 GMT
Hey, this is a sword forum!  (The last not-nerd left us 2009 when he found out that we don't talk about Windows Word) |
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Post by pgandy on Nov 16, 2022 21:33:20 GMT
Pgandy, that’s about 2 ounces for the leather gloves, and you said it was more comfortable. Maybe add a couple ounces of magnet and try again? Four oz seems to be somewhat good for my sword, which is significantly different from yours but not from a different universe. Surely have diminishing returns at some point. (That picture of the gauntlet wasn’t a message was it? 😁) Thanks for playing along! gorr The leather was more comfortable meaning the sword in hand, the purpose it was designed for. Not more comfortable by the way the sabre moved. That glove was tended to even out the pressure spots. |
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Post by gorr on Nov 16, 2022 22:33:56 GMT
He makes convincing arguments.
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Post by gorr on Nov 18, 2022 15:34:27 GMT
I have come to the realization that the sword dynamics calculator method, while fine for comparing different styles, and for comparing different swords of the same style, is inadequate for what I am trying to do with these weights.
The error in measurement of vibrational nodes and estimating the distribution of mass via oscillation/waggle tests is too large relative to the power of the model and the orders of magnitude of the variables. So while I can "feel" the difference 4 or 6 oz of weight in the handguard, when I repeat the measurements, I get wildly different numbers. So they are unreliable.
So somewhere between removing a little mass in the foible, and adding a little mass in the hilt, or a combination of the two, is what you could call a tune-up, or maybe an optimization of an existing sword. Lots of authoritative voices seem to think this is tilting at windmills, but I also read on this forum of some successes. It's a long winter coming up, lots of time for further cobbling.
I think there is a future for the mathematical approach. This exercise has helped me learn a lot, and I appreciate all those who have humored me and added their knowledge and experience.
Be well, all.
gorr
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Things have changed!