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Post by Mark Millman on Aug 31, 2022 2:10:32 GMT
Dear alientude,
Can you either describe the tip-weight measurement or provide the timestamp at which Tom Kinder describes it? I'm curious about it, but I frankly am not willing to sit through potentially 50 minutes of the video to find out.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by alientude on Aug 31, 2022 3:38:25 GMT
I watched it months ago, so I don't remember where he talked about it. Basically, you hold the sword by the grip very lightly in your hand, parallel with the ground, and with the tip on a scale. It's not truly the weight of the tip, but according to Tom Kinder, a longsword should (very generally) be around 150g-200g measured (if I'm remembering correctly).
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Post by Mark Millman on Aug 31, 2022 12:38:17 GMT
Dear alientude,
Thank you very much for the description. I have to say that this sounds like the kind of idiosyncratic measurement that is very unlikely to be consistent between people and doesn't add much if there's a complete set of the standard ones.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by pellius on Sept 4, 2022 23:45:58 GMT
Nice Thanks for sharing
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Post by jyamada on Sept 5, 2022 1:39:10 GMT
Excellent measurement layouts. It's also good you show metric and english measurements so the reader/viewer doesn't have to do conversions.
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Post by alientude on Sept 9, 2022 15:51:40 GMT
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Post by alientude on Sept 24, 2022 1:33:23 GMT
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Post by joe_meadmaker on Sept 24, 2022 2:55:27 GMT
Dear alientude, Thank you very much for the description. I have to say that this sounds like the kind of idiosyncratic measurement that is very unlikely to be consistent between people and doesn't add much if there's a complete set of the standard ones. Best, Mark Millman Not necessarily. If you interpret the words 'holding the grip lightly' to mean just enough to keep the sword parallel to the ground, all this will really do is suspend the sword in the air by two points. The tip, and the handle. I imagine you could do this (measurement) most efficiently by balancing the grip in an open hand so that its downward force (at the grip) is all you're supporting. I tried this with my Fiore and the scale measured 231 grams. This method should provide the same weight no matter who is doing it, as long as the sword is parallel to the ground. Just to note, I also did not watch the video. This is just a guess at what the measurement might represent. But I think it's an interesting idea. I never heard of tip weight before either. Great analysis of all your swords alientude! I wish I had the motivation to do something similar with my collection.
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Post by Mark Millman on Sept 24, 2022 16:55:11 GMT
Dear joe_meadmaker,
The technique you describe is what I imagined, and is exactly the reason for my comments. I suspect that many people who might try it won't be as careful as you are to exert minimal force on the grip and to ensure that the sword is absolutely horizontal. Also, I suspect that the hand's location on the grip affects the measured weight, and if a user prefers a grip that doesn't place the dominant hand against the guard, their result will be different from that of another user who does grip next to the guard.
In any case, given the very unreliable quality control of many sword manufacturers, this measurement seems especially likely to be particular to individual examples of even the same model, and not to be consistent across several examples of the same model except among products of the most precise manufacturers. But that unreliable quality control and the variations it creates between examples of specific models are more general, linked problems rarely accounted for in reviews of budget and mid-range swords.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by joe_meadmaker on Sept 25, 2022 4:35:18 GMT
True enough Mark. I definitely understand your point. Differences in the position of the hand, and if the blade isn't completely flat, will certainly cause slight variations in the measurement. But that said, you mentioned that variations of this measurement could be seen across different examples of the same model sword. I agree. But the same could be said for more regularly used measurements such as weight, POB, etc.
This has made me curious though. We know that a sword's weight and POB alone don't tell the whole story of whether it will feel like it has good control in the hand. I wonder if adding an accurate measure of tip weight would give a better overall picture of what a sword's maneuverability will be. Obviously someone would need to be familiar how the tip weight should compare with other measurements for it to be of any value. As I said, it has made me curious.
Cheers man!
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Post by Mark Millman on Sept 25, 2022 17:37:51 GMT
Dear joe_meadmaker, . . . variations of this measurement [tip weight] could be seen across different examples of the same model sword . . . the same could be said for more regularly used measurements such as weight, POB, etc. With the proviso that overall weight and PoB are easier to measure reliably, (and to repeat myself--my apologies) that's one of the problems with reviews of budget and mid-range swords. We understand them to reflect the model's performance, but in most--perhaps the overwhelming majority--of cases, the measurements only apply to the example being reviewed. Because of variations in manufacturing and lack of quality control they can't be taken as reliable for other examples of that model, much less as indicating whether the manufacturer's other models may handle well. In fact I think there's a very good chance that tip weight, if measured accurately, would be good for this. It should be a comparatively simple measurement that reflects a sword's dynamic properties, which are hard to measure directly without a torsion balance or a pendulum--not pieces of gear that most people have just lying around. Measuring the blade's pivot point (not the vibratory node) also gives the same kind of information, but it's difficult to do precisely. If you're not already familiar with Vincent Le Chevalier's work, documented on his blog Ensis Sub Caelo, you may want to look at it. He's developed a graphical representation of swords' handling that includes dynamic characteristics as well as static measurements. People who use the system say it gives very accurate descriptions of swords' in-hand performance. Best, Mark Millman
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