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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 20:37:35 GMT
Greetings, Sword Buyers!
I would like to start a conversation on the role that ethics play in the sword market. This is a matter that is seldom discussed, but I think warrants more substantive conversation. This is the perfect place to discuss this because this is, after all, The Sword Buyers Guide.
Generally, I would like to know what role you think ethics play as a buyer of swords, and what role you think it plays for the sword maker.
Disclaimer: Given that the subject is ethics, which concerns principles involving a person's conduct and behavior, I think it would be all too easy for this thread to devolve into the abyss of hearsay if we focus our conversation on purported examples of unethical behavior. I did not start this conversation to air out petty grievances or to give us all a platform to be negative. This does not have to be a negative thread. Invariably, someone will bring up examples of alleged unethical behavior. How do you know right from wrong if you don't discuss the wrong? I get that. I just ask that we keep things civil, and please, let's not irritate the moderators.
To get things started, I thought I'd reference an incident I observed recently regarding Nepalese smith, Purna Darnal.
As some of you know, Purna Darnal is the owner of Great Gurkha Khukuri (GGK), which is located in Kathmandu, Nepal. He is a talented blacksmith and craftsman of traditional Nepalese blades, and he has earned a reputation around the forum for his outstanding custom work.
As a buyer, there are more than a few positives when you commission work from Mr. Darnal; I admit I am highly biased here. First, you're supporting a terrific craftsman. Second, his work queue is very short and turnaround is fast. Third, the general quality of his builds is excellent. Lastly, the exchange rate, let's face it, is incredibly favorable.
There are a few negatives though, although let's call them something else. Let's call them obstacles.
First, the language barrier. English is not our man's first language. He writes in broken English on a 1st grade reading level. Second, he has virtually no background, exposure to, or context of historic European arms and armor. So if you want to commission a European style of sword or a replica of a historic European sword, he will need to be provided with context.
Generally, I like to provide him with a sketch that includes measurements in metric rather than imperial, since metric is the system he is most comfortable in. If I find I cannot sketch something well enough, I'll ask him to do it, but will provide a rough looking sketch of what I am looking for. Also, it never hurts to provide him with lots of photos, but on the condition that they are references. This brings me to the example I want to discuss.
I saw that someone has commissioned a replica of a European sword from Purna using ONLY photos of a replica made by a manufacturer located in an English-speaking country, though I won't say where.
Is it ethical to request a 1:1 replica of a replica made by another smith in another country? Mind you, Purna is completely unfamiliar with this manufacturer, as he is unfamiliar with most manufacturers located outside Nepal. The man's purview is Nepalese weapons. Also, what ethical obligations might he have as the commissioned smith? Should he turn down such a commission? This scenario, in my opinion, has many ethical concerns.
I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on this subject. Please keep things civil.
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Post by fester on May 10, 2022 20:58:46 GMT
I have often wondered myself if it is ethical to make a copy of another smith's or company's sword with a different sword smith.
I do not think it is unethical if you are having them produce a well known historical sword that is available for anyone to see or even handle. For example there are a lot of smiths/companies that make copies of the Writhen Sword.
so in that regard I do not think there is an issue.
I also do not think it is an ethical issue if a copy is made of a sword illustrated in a book even if it is just an artist interpretation of a what a sword looked like. In other words public domain.
Now making an exact copy of another manufacturers sword that is not in the public domain or is of an existing historical sword is probably unethical if you are making an exact copy of it.
However, if you change it slightly around in statistics or furniture or some other form of change then I think it becomes more grey and may not necessarily be unethical.
Just my thoughts
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2022 21:02:10 GMT
This is a good start. Thanks, fester!
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Post by Murffy on May 10, 2022 21:11:40 GMT
Can you, in effect, copywrite a sword design? I'm not sure that you can. I think you might have to patent it.
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Post by alientude on May 10, 2022 21:24:52 GMT
Sticky discussion topic, for sure. First off, if it's a historical sword, nobody owns the design, so have it at, in my opinion.
I started typing below referring to Smith #1 and Smith #2 and it started reading really clunky, so since Purna was in the first post, I will use his name for parts, and X for the other smith.
I think it is unethical of a customer to ask Purna to exactly duplicate X's work, presuming there is something original about that work.
I don't think it's particularly reasonable to expect Purna to be worldly enough to recognize that X's work is original and decline the commission.
If the customer likes the work of X enough, they should buy from X. But if the customer wants Purna's interpretation of X's work, that's much less of an issue. But the customer should make it clear to Purna what the source for the original work is, and also stress that they want Purna to influence the details of the design himself.
To illustrate with a simplistic example, say the customer saw a sword created by X that has a lot of engravings on the crossguard. I think the customer, asking Purna to do his version of that sword, should explain that the engravings are only an example, and they would like Purna to do his own designs (or the customer could supply them).
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Post by paulmuaddib on May 10, 2022 21:49:56 GMT
Great topic for a thread. I’ve never commissioned anything so haven’t run into this myself but so far agree with what has been said. I do remember a thread on here when I first joined (about 5 years ago). Someone wanted a bowie type knife that a smith had made. The problem was the smith was retired or had died or maybe had a long wait time, can’t remember exactly. He asked if any of the smiths on here would make it. He wanted an exact copy. The forum smiths all said they would not do it because they felt that was the original smiths intellectual property. The guy kept saying he couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t do it since he was a paying customer and this is what he wanted. Went back and forth. I was new to all of this and remember thinking give the guy what he wants. But since then I’ve come around to the the forum smith’s idea that they thought it would be stealing. Like I said, great subject leb.
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stormmaster
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I like viking/migration era swords
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Post by stormmaster on May 10, 2022 21:53:42 GMT
As long as it's not a blatant copy I think its ok, historical pieces go at it since it's noone's original work, also would be nice if the original maker is asked for permission ofc for any inspirations that a new piece might take
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Post by treeslicer on May 10, 2022 22:38:44 GMT
Greetings, Sword Buyers!
I would like to start a conversation on the role that ethics play in the sword market. This is a matter that is seldom discussed, but I think warrants more substantive conversation. This is the perfect place to discuss this because this is, after all, The Sword Buyers Guide.
Generally, I would like to know what role you think ethics play as a buyer of swords, and what role you think it plays for the sword maker.
Disclaimer: Given that the subject is ethics, which concerns principles involving a person's conduct and behavior, I think it would be all too easy for this thread to devolve into the abyss of hearsay if we focus our conversation on purported examples of unethical behavior. I did not start this conversation to air out petty grievances or to give us all a platform to be negative. This does not have to be a negative thread. Invariably, someone will bring up examples of alleged unethical behavior. How do you know right from wrong if you don't discuss the wrong? I get that. I just ask that we keep things civil, and please, let's not irritate the moderators.
To get things started, I thought I'd reference an incident I observed recently regarding Nepalese smith, Purna Darnal.
As some of you know, Purna Darnal is the owner of Great Gurkha Khukuri (GGK), which is located in Kathmandu, Nepal. He is a talented blacksmith and craftsman of traditional Nepalese blades, and he has earned a reputation around the forum for his outstanding custom work.
As a buyer, there are more than a few positives when you commission work from Mr. Darnal; I admit I am highly biased here. First, you're supporting a terrific craftsman. Second, his work queue is very short and turnaround is fast. Third, the general quality of his builds is excellent. Lastly, the exchange rate, let's face it, is incredibly favorable.
There are a few negatives though, although let's call them something else. Let's call them obstacles.
First, the language barrier. English is not our man's first language. He writes in broken English on a 1st grade reading level. Second, he has virtually no background, exposure to, or context of historic European arms and armor. So if you want to commission a European style of sword or a replica of a historic European sword, he will need to be provided with context.
Generally, I like to provide him with a sketch that includes measurements in metric rather than imperial, since metric is the system he is most comfortable in. If I find I cannot sketch something well enough, I'll ask him to do it, but will provide a rough looking sketch of what I am looking for. Also, it never hurts to provide him with lots of photos, but on the condition that they are references. This brings me to the example I want to discuss.
I saw that someone has commissioned a replica of a European sword from Purna using ONLY photos of a replica made by a manufacturer located in an English-speaking country, though I won't say where.
Is it ethical to request a 1:1 replica of a replica made by another smith in another country? Mind you, Purna is completely unfamiliar with this manufacturer, as he is unfamiliar with most manufacturers located outside Nepal. The man's purview is Nepalese weapons. Also, what ethical obligations might he have as the commissioned smith? Should he turn down such a commission? This scenario, in my opinion, has many ethical concerns.
I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on this subject. Please keep things civil.
Since we may only address these issues on this forum legally:
In the case you cited, I see no infraction in soliciting or making yet another replica of a known historical type. Consider various historical examples offered by sword selling websites. Perhaps 20 different suppliers may already supply their production of a certain item, such as a US 1860 saber, or a particular Viking type. Adding one more as a custom order isn't a crime, IMHO, and none of the established suppliers have any valid grounds to complain of that alone. OTOH, reproducing another supplier's copyrighted illustrations commercially without written permission would constitute a violation of their rights in many jurisdictions. The way around that would be to send the custom smith a publicly accessible link to the item you want copied.
In regard to buying, I feel that my only ethical responsibilities to the seller are to pay them fully, and on time, and to report on their products and performance factually to others. I do all that.
As regards the responsibilities of sellers, IMHO, those consist in not committing any contractual breaches or torts of any sort against the buyer. Now, go read through the thousands of posts here dealing with sellers who misrepresent their products, or fail to ship what they promise to supply, as agreed, and properly packed, in a timely fashion, and tell me what a reasonable person would judge the general state of ethics in the sword business to currently be..........
BTW, having traded with many another seller online, I consider SBG to generally be a "shining city on the hill" with regard to its ethical performance. With regard to buying production swords, I'd recommend it as one of the very safest sources on the 'Net, to buy from.
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Post by Elrikk on May 10, 2022 22:54:36 GMT
I would think smith #1 worked from a photo at some point…so….
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
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Post by steveboy on May 10, 2022 23:10:41 GMT
Can you, in effect, copywrite a sword design? I'm not sure that you can. I think you might have to patent it. Copyright or patent would only apply in the country of register. It takes considerable resources to establish intellectual property rights in an international market -- and even then, unscrupulous knockoff manufacturers, from individuals to corporations, are rarely deterred by them.
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Post by fester on May 11, 2022 0:32:59 GMT
Great topic for a thread. I’ve never commissioned anything so haven’t run into this myself but so far agree with what has been said. I do remember a thread on here when I first joined (about 5 years ago). Someone wanted a bowie type knife that a smith had made. The problem was the smith was retired or had died or maybe had a long wait time, can’t remember exactly. He asked if any of the smiths on here would make it. He wanted an exact copy. The forum smiths all said they would not do it because they felt that was the original smiths intellectual property. The guy kept saying he couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t do it since he was a paying customer and this is what he wanted. Went back and forth. I was new to all of this and remember thinking give the guy what he wants. But since then I’ve come around to the the forum smith’s idea that they thought it would be stealing. Like I said, great subject leb. If the smith had died I would not consider it unethical to produce a copy at that point. He is not around to be infringed upon anymore. So I would have agreed with the guy in your example if the smith was dead and a family member was not continuing the business. If he had retired that could be more sticky and I could understand more if other smiths declined the job for that reason.
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Post by paulmuaddib on May 11, 2022 2:02:12 GMT
Great topic for a thread. I’ve never commissioned anything so haven’t run into this myself but so far agree with what has been said. I do remember a thread on here when I first joined (about 5 years ago). Someone wanted a bowie type knife that a smith had made. The problem was the smith was retired or had died or maybe had a long wait time, can’t remember exactly. He asked if any of the smiths on here would make it. He wanted an exact copy. The forum smiths all said they would not do it because they felt that was the original smiths intellectual property. The guy kept saying he couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t do it since he was a paying customer and this is what he wanted. Went back and forth. I was new to all of this and remember thinking give the guy what he wants. But since then I’ve come around to the the forum smith’s idea that they thought it would be stealing. Like I said, great subject leb. If the smith had died I would not consider it unethical to produce a copy at that point. He is not around to be infringed upon anymore. So I would have agreed with the guy in your example if the smith was dead and a family member was not continuing the business. If he had retired that could be more sticky and I could understand more if other smiths declined the job for that reason. I agree but I’m to lazy to go back thru all those posts. Haha. Next time I get a couple of days off maybe I’ll try to look it up. Trip down memory lane.
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Post by Kane Shen on May 11, 2022 16:40:12 GMT
On the legal layer, I don’t think you can pattern a general shape of an physical object. However if you copyright a sword design with very specific dimensions and features, all they have to do is changing some minor details and they are not technically committing copyright infringement. So there’a no point to go through the legal layer at all.
Ethically a customer may submit samples of existing specimen, both antique originals, and contemporary pieces as inspirations for his design. But at the time of signing a contract he would have to agree to a concrete design, and that should not be identical to a living person’s work, unless the the you obtain an explicit consent. Generally speaking, whoever come up with the design, be it the customer, or the craftsman.
About the recent incident. Purna Darnal’s work was based on a design a customer sent him, but it’s not identical to Wes Beem’s. One of the most defining feature missing on Wes’ but present on Purna’s is the pommel. The grip on Purna’s is also mostly based on a design of a previous commission by Holger. Honestly it’s rather simple actually-just two wooden scales securing an expose full width tang with a few pins, typical knife grip that nobody can claim credit on, let alone one with a pommel.
The blade is of historical Nepalese kora design, so nobody can claim credit on. The dimensions like the specific width and thickness, length are not the same. So it all comes down to whether a modern maker can pattern the ingenious innovation of hilting a kora blade with a modern knife hilt instead of a traditional tulwar hilt. Personally I don’t think that’s a case.
I don’t think the person who accuses Purna of “ripping off “ his design even has this standard as himself often take aesthetical designs from movies, TV series and video games (but not design as dimensions) and make them for commercial purposes.
Another accusation is a forum member here didn’t send Purna a concrete design, but a good number of photos of archeological finds and some modern examples by different makers including Cedarlore Forge. The customer couldn’t come up with a concrete design so he asked Purna to make it however he wants. Purna then married a Celtic sword to a hilt similar to the Cedarlore Forge piece that the customer sent him. The customer accused him of ripping off Cedarlore design even though he was the one who sent the photos. So I don’t know who is the one responsible of ripping off someone’s design in this case. If per the customer’s standard that he should obtain the consent, he should have obtained the consent prior to sending the photos as inspiration for his commission, shouldn’t he?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 0:16:30 GMT
Another accusation is a forum member here didn’t send Purna a concrete design, but a good number of photos of archeological finds and some modern examples by different makers including Cedarlore Forge. The customer couldn’t come up with a concrete design so he asked Purna to make it however he wants. Purna then married a Celtic sword to a hilt similar to the Cedarlore Forge piece that the customer sent him. The customer accused him of ripping off Cedarlore design even though he was the one who sent the photos. So I don’t know who is the one responsible of ripping off someone’s design in this case. If per the customer’s standard that he should obtain the consent, he should have obtained the consent prior to sending the photos as inspiration for his commission, shouldn’t he? Ok, now this story I did not hear. What a whopper! Where does one begin?
A year ago, I sent Purna photos of an archaeological find AND some reference photos of replicas made by other smiths. I wanted the blade made to the exact specifications of the archaeological find, but I was undecided regarding the sword fittings. For clarity, this was a Roman spatha.
Ultimately, Purna gleaned from the reference photos I sent him and designed something on his own, which I approved. The finished hilt was one solid piece, which he turned on a lathe and carved. I didn't ask him to use this constructional method, but I felt it was original, even if it is not entirely historical. I cannot foresee anything even remotely unethical about my Spatha commission, but what you're describing is rather problematic.
First, I'm sure Purna never heard of Cedarlore Forge. As I stated in my original post, the man's purview is Nepalese blades. His English is elementary. He knows little about historic European arms and armor. Second, if you don't give Purna any guidance on the design portion of the commission, then you'll get what he gives you. Furthermore, he always shows me his sketches and provides regular status updates with photos during the build. If I noticed his design looked too similar to a Cedarlore Forge design, I would have asked him to tweak it, and provided suggestions on how he might do it. Consenting to the build, watching it get put together, and then complaining about the finished product being too like the reference photos you provided is just plain silly.
What a problematic situation. I am sure there are other details from this story we are lacking, but on the surface it's definitely symptomatic of the ethical problems I wish to discuss.
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Post by snubnoze on May 12, 2022 0:30:09 GMT
What are your guys thoughts on this scenario:
During the whole OTC/Shazeb saga it was revealed that he was offering to make designs that were given to him for a possible commission, but never actually made. So a potential customer provided him with a design in which he turned around and offered to make for other potential customers - by showing them the exact image with dimensions he was sent by that customer.
To me that seems crazy unethical.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 0:44:03 GMT
What are your guys thoughts on this scenario: During the whole OTC/Shazeb saga it was revealed that he was offering to make designs that were given to him for a possible commission, but never actually made. So a potential customer provided him with a design in which he turned around and offered to make for other potential customers - by showing them the exact image with dimensions he was sent by that customer. To me that seems crazy unethical. I don't want to be an apologist here, but I often wonder if there are some cultural misunderstandings involved in many of these cases. When I was a graduate student, I observed that many of the students from other countries were not particularly well informed regarding academic dishonesty and plagiarism. One assumes these concepts are universal, but they are not.
I don't want to be accused of moral relativism either, but there are some places in this world where the scenario you describe is not strictly considered dishonest, to an extent. If the customer did not go through with the proposed design, the smith might think it's discarded and fair game.
To give my own two cents and dispense with the moral relativism, yeah, I think it's dishonest.
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Post by glendon on May 12, 2022 3:57:00 GMT
PHIL 102: Introduction to Ethics
"Ethical" is not synonymous with "good", nor is "unethical" synonymous with "bad".
To be ethical is to adhere to a code of conduct. Such code need not be what we might regard as fair, right, or moral. Ethical only means "correct in form," and derives from cultural mores.
In America, it is unethical for an attorney to truthfully inform the judge that his client is not only guilty of murdering his family with an axe, but is planning on going right back out and finishing the job with the cousins. However, it is perfectly legal and ethical for American police to tell bald-faced lies to the subject of an interrogation. Many cultures would regard as completely unethical a system of jurisprudence that rewards lies and punishes truth.
If the only way to feed your kids is through selling forgeries, or the outright robbing of fellow townsfolk, then forgery is perhaps more ethical.
And supporting a niche industry of replica weapons, in the face of the needy families in all our hometowns, might be construed as very unethical, indeed.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on May 12, 2022 4:48:10 GMT
I don't think you should even made a close copy of someone's else design. I have been asked to make copies of Zombie Tool designs with a few changes turned them down/.
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Post by pellius on May 12, 2022 13:52:49 GMT
PHIL 102: Introduction to Ethics "Ethical" is not synonymous with "good", nor is "unethical" synonymous with "bad". To be ethical is to adhere to a code of conduct. Such code need not be what we might regard as fair, right, or moral. Ethical only means "correct in form," and derives from cultural mores. In America, it is unethical for an attorney to truthfully inform the judge that his client is not only guilty of murdering his family with an axe, but is planning on going right back out and finishing the job with the cousins. However, it is perfectly legal and ethical for American police to tell bald-faced lies to the subject of an interrogation. Many cultures would regard as completely unethical a system of jurisprudence that rewards lies and punishes truth. …. I entirely agree that “ethical” and “good” are not synonyms. As an aside, in homicide cases, the judge isn’t the ultimate finder of fact; the jury is. There are actually a number of circumstances where an attorney might tell a judge that the client committed the act accused. For example, agreeing to all the salient facts alleged and swearing to their truthfulness is a necessary foundation to a motion to dismiss. Also, in Florida anyway, an attorney is ethically (and legally) bound to report a client’s credible statements of intent to commit future crimes, regardless of privilege. Not to nitpick, but to echo that ethics is a subject that can have counterintuitive components. On the issue of sword design, in my personal opinion, unauthorized copies or near copies are unethical to make or request.
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steveboy
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Post by steveboy on May 12, 2022 18:43:53 GMT
PHIL 102: Introduction to Ethics "Ethical" is not synonymous with "good", nor is "unethical" synonymous with "bad". If the only way to feed your kids is through selling forgeries, or the outright robbing of fellow townsfolk, then forgery is perhaps more ethical. And supporting a niche industry of replica weapons, in the face of the needy families in all our hometowns, might be construed as very unethical, indeed. In law there is a notion of implied contract, which generally applies in everyday situations such as ordering food at a restaurant. The customer can't object to being presented with a bill by saying he never agreed to pay for the food, because of implied contract.
But interpretations of implied contract can vary culturally, such that -- as you astutely point out -- "ethical" and "good" or "right" aren't necessarily overlapping.
In situations where implied contract may not be shared, stating rights, obligations, or intentions outright at the beginning is the only way to establish a mutually understood contract. In this case, when you submit your sword designs, you have to state clearly that they are not to be shared or used by the craftsman for any other purpose but creating the commissioned sword. It can get all contracty-nitpicky and claim that derivative designs -- based on your submitted design -- are also forbidden, which would likely dissuade a craftsman from taking on the commission, as it opens him up to quite a lot of liability.
But even if stated before submission, that doesn't mean designs won't still be stolen. It just means that from that understanding on, the theft is regarded as theft and is unethical. Legal recourse is probably difficult, but in niche services, craftsmen rely on reputation.
This is an interesting topic.
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