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Post by AIKIGIG$ on May 9, 2022 6:19:21 GMT
Thank you very much friends. There is a lot of learning for me. Thank you for a detailed answers!
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Post by treeslicer on May 9, 2022 14:51:38 GMT
Look, I didn't read this paper as it's paywalled.
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on May 9, 2022 17:42:30 GMT
Look, I didn't read this paper as it's paywalled.
Yeah he sent me a direct link to a pdf in a later post. Thanks though.
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on May 9, 2022 19:38:24 GMT
This is getting too long and I should snooze so I’ll make it quick. You said a peer reviewed journal I posted was just a non credible pdf. So then how does stuff from joes that isn’t peer reviewed count as “ studies, discussions, experimentations”? If Yaso is worthless evidence and a panel of ranking professors okayed him and his precise measurements then what about joes guessing this and being reviewed by the likes of us? I’m sorry but you can see how by your standards I should not consider a hobbyist’s claims or a YouTuber’s claims as anymore than anecdotal and educated guesses. As for average. That is what you said on average Japanese swords are x compared to other swords. If you really have an average you can pull something up on google scholar, show me that, show me the same on scholar on average European swords (really hard given how few intact exist, we won’t know how the euro equivalent to Kazu-Uchi-Mono handled) we don’t have an average, we have what you’ve observed with replica (which by my experience aren’t balanced the same) and possibly a tiny level of antiques. Perhaps if we went to a sword show and felt a couple hundred we might get enough of a Japan sample but we still have the European problem. So in short, we have no reliable average right now, I don’t and unless you have a vast cache you don’t either. The 16 antique I’ve owned long enough to feel make me think your premise isn’t correct but I don’t have enough evidence to be conclusive. Regarding carbon dating, it’s ideal on organic matter (the radiation you breath in leaving as you die) so doesn’t seem like a good approach en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating although amazingly enough they’ve somehow started to apply it to iron works, perhaps you can contact these guys? link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11837-003-0239-zAs for the little crow, all I know is if you think some joes on YouTube are scientific sources then there’s no reason to doubt the museums. There are obvious 1000AD tachi and all the sources describe it as more primitive in morphology pinning it to yes, start of heian. What’s more the people who do this for a living set 800AD as when the style crystallizes so I see no reason to doubt them unless you can give evidence. Without that it’s just a guess and a guess by my book is not enough. I checked him on scholar, got hits for other people. He does some stuff commercially but honestly just seems like a less titled and prolific version of Markus. Not on my book The Expert unless like you said this is a bible club and he’s your Jesus. The other source, a pdf apparently comes from the people described in here www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/ifg2ea/hema_the_saga_of_john_clements_how_one_mans_ego/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmfThey sound like odd fellows not experts. I’m confused because you called peer reviewed work by leading scientists mere pdfs and nonsense but keep calling self published stuff “research”, to me the world turned upside down. You can write up anything and Chewbacca defense it on the net. It’s interesting but very guessy at best. What makes journals good is that you have to deliver strong evidence and good experiments proving your claims and several reviewers, the top in their field will force you to back everything you claim or if not they make you rewrite or shoot you down. It makes it solid, unlike guesses. You admitted you’re not familiar with the basic guides on Kantei. If that is so how can you Kantei that sword and Kantei it better than the Kantei experts museums employ? I’m nowhere near their level only knowing dozens but that double edged preshinogizukuri geometry is more primitive than tachi. Which is what the big boys say. Do you have the measurements the 16 antique nihontos in your possession now? This is a great opportunity to study them. We can take it a step further on a few things that Japanese antique sword sites don't even provide, like the point of balance and point of percussion once the blades are mounted, and tang dimensions (less important if the blade is already mounted). Important measures including obvious the weight, length (overall and blade including the habaki), nagasa, sori, but most crucially motokasane/sakikasane and motohaba/sakihaba. The edge angle would be great to measure, too as it can tell use something about the degree of niku. As for the thickness and width, it would be better if you can measure the blade every few inches along the blade, in addition to just the thickness and width above the habaki and at the yokote. We know many antiques feature complex distal and profile taper that's not linear. I linked Peter Johnsson's lecture in that video. It was recorded and uploaded by someone on YouTube. Peter Johnsson is not a YouTuber. I don't know why I have to explain Peter Johnsson is, but I guess here we are. I never linked anything by John Clement. So I don't know what the point of pointing a reddit post dissing him is. I literally said in the previous post that take everyone's statement with a grain of salt, because new findings happen every day, and new theories are proposed every day, and existing ones are being refined every day. But you said he's my Jesus, despite what I disclaimed about the caveat. You also make every source I link sound insignificant, while in several previous posts keep going back to Markus like some kind of buzzword ("you don't read markus" "you can't read markus"). I didn't dismiss his credential, but just said I read 17th and 18th antique Japanese source and I wouldn't trust a 21th century person on matter about the 17th/18th century steel import for Arms & Armor, over a group of actual Japanese authors, samurai (therefore actual period practitioner) and experts on Arms & Armor. However many books Markus have written, he can only get information from those sources at best. I don't know how well he could read middle-Japanese, but I can read them pretty well, and I know for a fact museum curators quite often mistranslate or misinterpret original sources, not to mention how often they got things about the housed collections wrong. That's mean they can't be considered expert because if you are a lot more knowledgeable than the average person and even everyone else at the museum, you are an expert. Yeah the way you use him is just like a bible study group, contrast to how I cautioned you about every source regardless of where they come from. Instead of finding common grounds, which are plenty and actively contribute to the discussion, you more often than not come across as just nitpicking from others' statements, despite that we know this is a casual discussion on a forum, complain about what incomplete statements they give, while complaining about the lengthiness about what they have to say. You know, if anyone give any less verbose statement to cover all the bases, can you promise not to hold it as a gotcha? This is especially egregious when you often misspoke or misquote. I wouldn't hold it against you if you don't go around to engage in every conversation in such a way as if you never had any good faith to begin with. How about some positive contribution and keep being open minded? I start to see a pattern in most conversations that you have decided to chime in. Somebody talking about a specific modern katana or a specific brand? Here you go "Hey did you know I own antiques?? Even though I occasionally find value in these lowly pursuit, too." Well here's your chance to show the value of having antiques in your possession. Put down the monocle, take off that bowtie, and pick up the measuring instruments. Any data you or anyone provides would obviously be of actual value, instead of turning yet another conversation into a pissing match and ego display. At least that's what I would like to see. I can't speak for the resident drama-queens. I asked for it in several previous posts in good faith. So far, absolutely not a single piece of data about your antiques is shown, other than that you dropped the fact that you have 16. OK, why do we need to know that if you are never gonna talk about any specific about any of them?
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on May 9, 2022 19:58:37 GMT
Oh and you keep assuming I'm not familiar with Japanese swords' typology, while you are not familiar with the typology of any sword from any other cultures. While we talk about comparisons, you are not familiar with the specific traits of any type. Well, about Japanese sword's typology, there are plenty of them summarized and crystalized already. Take this particular example. I'm sure you are instantly gonna dismiss it, not peer-reviewed, "therefore it's an one-up for me yadiyadiyada", aha--not from Markus. Well great, link a typology FROM a peer-reviewed source, or show a typology you come up on your own with diagrams that does better.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on May 10, 2022 3:40:36 GMT
Oh and you keep assuming I'm not familiar with Japanese swords' typology, while you are not familiar with the typology of any sword from any other cultures. While we talk about comparisons, you are not familiar with the specific traits of any type. Well, about Japanese sword's typology, there are plenty of them summarized and crystalized already. Take this particular example. I'm sure you are instantly gonna dismiss it, not peer-reviewed, "therefore it's an one-up for me yadiyadiyada", aha--not from Markus. Well great, link a typology FROM a peer-reviewed source, or show a typology you come up on your own with diagrams that does better. Well in your own words you are not familiar with the art of Kantei, that is typing a Japanese sword to a particular time and region to its physical characteristics. Everyone that’s learned that stuff has must own books and guides and you didn’t know who Nagayama was or Markus, says you knew better. That makes me think of what Socrates said. To get good we need to admit we don’t know. I don’t know much but I’ve had enough practice not to get cheated and to spot worthwhile items. The appraisers at Japanese museums are usually elite polishers. If they say their crow is from the end of the 8th century I’ll believe them, especially when your only evidence by your admission was your Kantei skills. Really, how many swords have you kanteid and appraised? What makes your skills superior to the best polishers in the world? Yeah I’ve seen that chart on Pinterest. It’s not so bad but the swords aren’t all well represented, for instance early muromachi have a shallower saki sori than that on average www.nihonto.com/a-brief-study-of-bizen-blades-of-the-muromachi-era/ The best reference for beginner to intermediate people is Nagayama, he’s a world treasure polisher btw and scholar www.amazon.com/Connoisseurs-Book-Japanese-Swords/dp/1568365810 He even helps you type to region, if you’re going to seriously buy you need it. And yes, it made Google scholar. If you don’t want to spend www.sho-shin.com is genius and is full of specimens and description of the entire nihonto tree studyingjapaneseswords.com Is good too and yes... also look at Markus’ Kantei guide. I know you don’t like him mentioned but he’s similar to the guy you called The Source on swords except he’s got lots of Google scholar hits, many cite his translated documents, and top museums use him as a researcher. No, I just want facts to be straight. You made a very strong claim that Japanese swords are X on average compared Y, I ask, how do you get your averages and what is your source? If you don’t have data for your averages it’s not in average it’s on your educated guess. Also you made a claim about history and the sources around contradicted it. It’s worth asking about that. as for the stats, give me a second, I’ll start by skimming my old eBay sales (not all of them are sold, many are my personal blades) super important to note: this is not a good average it’s a sample skewed by most of the blades being mid level stuff and affordable, ergo suriage and other shape warping issues are very common, all it tells you is the average stuff common samurai and dolphin level collectors own Gendai war blade Blade Length: 65.6cm (26 1/4") Total Length: 99cm (39") Sakihaba: 2.1cm Motohaba: 3cm., it was a hizento robust and with battle scars, easy to handle even with one hand (I pulled the sale because I’m my best customer lol) suriage uchigatana Sori: 1.2cm Nagasa: 60.6cm Tradition: Mino : Sue-Seki Motohaba; 3.2cm Sakihaba:2.2cm was a bigger sword before cut down so it’s fat relatively speaking, not my quickest, still a tough old sword that survived the sengoku Early uchigatana Benson typed to pre onin Bizen: nagasa 72cm. Sori: 1.7cm motohaba:2.9cm sakihaba: 1.8cm this one had machi Okuri when mounted as a gunto so the og Nagasa was longer and the nakago smaller, arguably one of the quickest and lightest I’ve owned, see, taper is a thing Gunto with a kanbun era ancestral blade: 66.7 nagasa, 2.9cm sakihaba, 1.9cm motohaba, unfortunately my eBay page on that one blanked since too long ago A dainty little kaga katana: 61.3cm, sori, 1.5, motohaba 2.5 sakihaba: 1.6, it might not look like much but has papers to a Wazamono smith and it has kirikomi battle scars. It’s a fighter Insyu Kanesaki,Shinto, 60.9cm, 1.6cm sori, 2.9moto 1.8saki, again you see a pattern: cheap katana are usually short katana, it’s a whole 10cm smaller than the average Shinto so remember the sampling bias. Also lost photos so enjoy looking at a kicho ’ Yamato Tegai, used to be a big koto tachi, it was greatly shortened for the edo period and is now 67.cm, motohaba 2.9, sakihaba 2cm o surriage knocks it out of being a first rate but I still like it, Yamato is a cool tradition, monks wielded it and given its shimazu koshirae when it was remounted uchigatana style it was by a satsuma samurai, possibly well off given the old blade A small (ie cheap) kanbun that was in fairly good polish, I sold it and my eBay listing has been deleted since that was long ago, unfortunately I didn’t record the widths, do know the sword was 62.4cm, sori was .7 and the naked blade was 600g A big shinshinto, probably seki, I haven’t measured it and I’m sending it off for polishing so all I can say is it’s big and about 30inches nagasa An early Shinto Eric sold me, 67cm, 2.1cm sori, 3 moto, 1.9 saki A *****22 train wreck I sent back after taking one look at, didn’t get its measurements Some late Showa gendai, my eBay was too long ago so the stats apart from it being 72cm are gone A O-waki that is a cut down katana, probably early shinto, Takeda, I think, haven’t measured its stats other than it being 57cm and that it’s a converted civilian gunto, it feels heavier than the kaga despite being shorter, a result of it being a osuriage of a bigger blade, from eyeballing I think it’s fairly wide for length I do have a few more like that kowaki I sold but they’re smaller things like that and tanto and more large dagger than sword so I don’t think it’s useful to you unless you insist sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/67304/antique-wakizashi-kuniyoshi-good-koshiraeAnyways, super important to note this is not an average of Japanese swords, just probably average swords a mid size collector might own with a strong bias for suriage and shorter bc it means more sword for the buck
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on May 10, 2022 5:01:19 GMT
Great post. This is kind of the information I would like to see. I have no issue with any healthy discussion or debate. Anyone is free to point out any specific part and disagree. In fact, an echo chamber is a very boring place. All of these is built on a presumption that things are talked about in good faith. I will go through the measurements of your collection. Thank you for providing them. Of course, any collection however big or small cannot represent every case in history, or even the average. But having some data is a good starting point for some observation and discussion. That typology chart has some good summary of the forms of nihonto throughout history, but obviously we know it doesn't represent all the cases. The fact that any typology has tons of caveats and exceptions has never stopped people from creating more of them, or modifying existing ones. Generalization will always be generalization. Another thing is that I never say Japanese swords have no or even tiny amount of taper both in profile and distally, I said on average it has about 30-40% profile taper, and 25-40% distal taper. There are exceptions, and there are extremes, but I think the overwhelming majority falls into roughly this range. And as you have noted in some of your collection, the specimens having greater degree of taper tends to feel livelier when comparing to swords of equal size. Niku seems to have a smaller impact, too. It would be great to see the motokasane/sakikasane (or maybe the thickness at halfway across the blade even through it's not a stat traditional measured and recorded). Thickness is often overlooked in how they impact the handling and dynamics. You see if the thickness near the tip is only 1/3 of the thickness at the base, it obviously would feel lively than the one with thickness near the tip that's 3/4 of the thickness at the base, provided that they have similar taper of width.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on May 10, 2022 5:20:33 GMT
Sorry if I’ve come off as curt, not what I intend and probably a result of writing while distracted. Indeed, taper usually correlated with quicker (Oei, Kanbun and Kaga) and suriage are heavier than ubu of same size. Even the shinshinto was easier to use than the Kurin tameshigiri and Bugei I owned though(and both of those were excellent swords). I might try to measure them more since there is a wide range of difference in niku and shinogi width and kassane. That said it takes a lot of time and I currently only have 7 of the listed in my possession and they’re divided between two addresses. Way many collectors study is you buy, study for a couple of years and sell and buy a new one.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 10, 2022 15:12:11 GMT
I am not very active in here, I have felt this forum has been very negative over the last few years. As I lack academic credits I don't stress about academic stuff.
- Peter Johnsson is very well respected and his research is extremely interesting.
- In my opinion Markus Sesko is one of the top translators of Japanese sword texts in the world. As his knowledge of languages is excellent and sword texts need combined knowledge of swords and language I would choose him over almost every native Japanese speaker (as they mostly don't have the sword knowledge needed). However now that he landed the job at MET I do think it greatly hinders his possibilities for translation work.
- While period texts are often very fascinating (I must admit as I am not fluent in Japanese translating long texts by myself takes long time be it historical or modern Japanese) I do think more modern texts have higher knowledge in general. The general knowledge is just continuosly expanding as we get more and more research done. Of course bits of history get lost due to time and historical documents can be the only way of getting glimpse of that information.
- The Kogarasu-maru of Imperial collection is generally thought to be early Heian period work. I would think it would be c. 800 - 1000. Yes by tradition it is attributed towards Amakuni but in general it would fit as Ko-Yamato work. I think the attribution is "respectful" but the age would be fitting. There are lots of things in Japan that are done of respect.
- I do think I have one of the best databases when it comes to pre-1450's Japanese swords. So far I have 11,000+ swords down, and will continue to work on it years to come. Just years of dedicated research will get you a long way on many things.
- Japanese swords are just swords, fitting their own purpose in the world of swords. Different swords were made by different cultures during the history and I think all should be appreciated.
None of the above really has anything to do with the opening post of the thread. I think it was covered well in early posts to this thread but I felt the discussion evolved.
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on May 10, 2022 18:24:01 GMT
Sorry if I’ve come off as curt, not what I intend and probably a result of writing while distracted. Indeed, taper usually correlated with quicker (Oei, Kanbun and Kaga) and suriage are heavier than ubu of same size. Even the shinshinto was easier to use than the Kurin tameshigiri and Bugei I owned though(and both of those were excellent swords). I might try to measure them more since there is a wide range of difference in niku and shinogi width and kassane. That said it takes a lot of time and I currently only have 7 of the listed in my possession and they’re divided between two addresses. Way many collectors study is you buy, study for a couple of years and sell and buy a new one. That's totally fine. Sharing statistics of the antiques or even recently made specimens in your possession is great contribution. No hurry on some of the stats missing, I understand handling antiques requires a lot of care, so better take those stats down when you maintain them. It's also great that you included some of the handling characteristics and put them in context. Having the thickness taken is also of great importance for others understanding of some of the physical traits and possible impact to their dynamics. While the profile taper and shape can be somewhat easily inferred from well-taken photos, it's almost impossible for anyone to discern the tapering of the thickness other than the handler himself. After all, it's 50% of the dimensional data and plays that amount of role in affecting the handling. While weight and center of gravity depend on the mounting, the tapering of two dimensions and the edge geometry tells you a good deal about the sword blade. Would be great to take it even further in establishment of your personal database, like the way the Oakeshott Institute catalogs the stats of the antiques: This shows additional information when the profile and distal tapering isn't linear, which is observed more on European swords with flared shoulder or reinforced tip, but also on some nihonto with fumbari or reinforged kissaki with flared-up thickness. It would be great if people can start measuring and recording the edge angles to showcase the edge geometry (the amount of niku). A video showcase by the Oakeshott Institute measuring antiques inherited from Ewart Oakeshott's personal collection. Sometimes people dedicate all the efforts on the provenance of antiques--which is admittedly of great importance, but overlook the physical traits and handling characteristics, because they didn't pay attention to understand their significance, or when some people do understand them, they hoard them as commercial secrets. Having a more open database to the public would be of great contribution.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on May 10, 2022 18:54:53 GMT
I’ve left several including the hizento with my brother so I won’t be able to check those till the weekend. It’s an interesting one though: it doesn’t taper, is relatively wide and has a wide kassane, even at the kissaki and yet it handles very well and is easily handled with the right hand alone, no surprise as it’s a gunto side arm. In that case it defies expectations by being limber, why I’m not sure but perhaps its curvature and the balance provided by its long nakago help? I’ll try and grab some calipers for the weekend.
As for database: Jussi mentioned a huge database. You should ask him. It will certainly be more representative of averages, as I mentioned mine is skewed because I have a tolerance for surriage and shorter than average swords.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 10, 2022 19:46:21 GMT
Give it some years, I feel people are so hasty nowdays. I always give out my research out for free, I do not desire any commercial or academical gain.
So far for late Kamakura smith Nagamitsu from Bizen I have 160 tachi. 152 of them are signed and 17 are dated, 8 unsigned ones attributed towards him. Earliest dated one is 1274 and latest 1316. Longest one of them is 88,7 cm and shortest 61,2 cm (I did not include kodachi but the line is very hazy)
They average nagasa: 72,2 cm, sori: 2,3 cm, motohaba: 2,9 cm, sakihaba 1,8 cm
74 if them are ubu [or very near it] (unaltered length with original tang), for them averages are nagasa: 73,7 cm, sori: 2,5 cm, motohaba: 2,9 cm, sakihaba 1,8 cm
I chose Nagamitsu as an example as I have most tachi by him out of any smiths, these swords are all verified by Japanese experts as genuine. I only accept swords that have validation that I deem authenticated by proper authenticating entity.
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Post by Kane Shen on May 10, 2022 19:55:13 GMT
- Japanese swords are just swords, fitting their own purpose in the world of swords. Different swords were made by different cultures during the history and I think all should be appreciated. That is exactly my point all along (I think I stressed that several times in previous posts). If things existed and survived over a long period of time, it's because they've been refined to work in their context and their purposes. Not to mention that we need to look at them in the broader context that while swords were status symbol of authority, nobility and wealth, martially they were often sidearms secondary to primary armaments like projectile weapons and polearms. Noting the difference doesn't equate to asserting superiority of some over others. I am not very active in here, I have felt this forum has been very negative over the last few years. I think it has been the nature for forums or even public discourse since...forever. Social media like Twitter's popularization exacerbates it even more. People tend to laser focus on the things they disagree on even if it's like 5%, but discard the 95 percent they do agree on. They tend to give the least charitable interpretation of each other's words and assume the worst and are eager to jump to the defense of the things or people that they perceive to be on the receiving end of a slight, up in arms. - Peter Johnsson is very well respected and his research is extremely interesting. I think what's great about Peter Johnsson's practices and theories is that on top of all the archeological research, he also recreate historical swords regularly by using both completely traditional methods and means that are more modern, by sampling a great number of surviving examples from the Viking-era and medieval times, not to mention he works regularly with people in the historical European martial arts community, who study period treatises and handle swords like they are supposed to be used in sparring and test cutting. It offers people like him a more multi-faceted perspective. In my opinion Markus Sesko is one of the top translators of Japanese sword texts in the world. As his knowledge of languages is excellent and sword texts need combined knowledge of swords and language I would choose him over almost every native Japanese speaker (as they mostly don't have the sword knowledge needed). However now that he landed the job at MET I do think it greatly hinders his possibilities for translation work. I'm sure he has abundant credentials to offer tons of value to the conversation and study, definitely much more so than an average Japanese Joe who isn't knowledgeable about history, or swords, or period texts. But I still think if one is qualified to read ancient texts written by actual experts and practitioners, he should do so. Coming from a family with a number of published translators of ancient texts who are considered authority in the field, I can often find specific details lost in translation. I often find myself disagreeing with said authorities--even people in my family on certain things in their work because of the lack of context on any given subject. It would be most authentic to directly read period text rather than translation, provided one is qualified to do so. There are of course a number of things we the modern people have greater knowledge about, because of the advancement of science and the expansion of human knowledge base, but still certain understandings have been lost due to time, and sometimes you only get the most accurate and authentic take from the people who were directly involved in the matter at the time, especially if they recorded it in detail. I do think I have one of the best databases when it comes to pre-1450's Japanese swords. So far I have 11,000+ swords down, and will continue to work on it years to come. Just years of dedicated research will get you a long way on many things. That's fascinating! Any chance you could make it public, or share it with even just a group of people? Such information would be of great value to the broad understanding of the subject matter.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on May 10, 2022 23:30:12 GMT
I think Jussi’s database sounds like something with great value. It’s interesting to see how apart from less and different sori early muromachi bizen are shaped like their older counterparts, which fits what the books said about them emulating old stuff.
One thing I worry about with databases on European works is that given how few medieval European swords remain functional you will have a substantial bias in sampling what remains. I imagine they’ll disproportionately be swords belonging to the wealthy like the “Joyuse”, great and all but then we don’t know about the munitions grade swords, the average swords. That’s less of a problem with Japan since for some odd reason vast numbers of their kazu-uchi-mono survived so it’s easy to get an intact specimen of what peons would have wielded. Biggest problem is that most archaic swords are suriage.
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on May 11, 2022 0:23:28 GMT
I think Jussi’s database sounds like something with great value. It’s interesting to see how apart from less and different sori early muromachi bizen are shaped like their older counterparts, which fits what the books said about them emulating old stuff. One thing I worry about with databases on European works is that given how few medieval European swords remain functional you will have a substantial bias in sampling what remains. I imagine they’ll disproportionately be swords belonging to the wealthy like the “Joyuse”, great and all but then we don’t know about the munitions grade swords, the average swords. That’s less of a problem with Japan since for some odd reason vast numbers of their kazu-uchi-mono survived so it’s easy to get an intact specimen of what peons would have wielded. Biggest problem is that most archaic swords are suriage. Yes indeed. There's a substantially smaller sample size of surviving medieval swords (there's a much richer source of swords in excellent condition since the Renaissance though) than nihonto. Indeed many of the most preserved swords are the ones belonged to people like Henry V, or the Coronation Sword of the Holy Roman Empire, however some swords has been passed down through estates and rather well maintained and they seem to be mid to high status swords. There are lots of low to mid status swords also preserved well as they are water-finds, as water preserves steel much better than soil. Even "munition-grade" swords tend to be properly made they are mostly produced in several swordmaking centers in Europe in large workshops (sometimes as complete swords, sometimes as blades to be imported to each country and outfitted by local cutlers) and the quality is fairly consistent, especially since the 14th century. One thing to keep in mind is that the "munition grade" is largely a Renaissance concept. Stockpiling large amount of weapons and armor for personal or central army wasn't a practice in medieval times. Swords were private purchases. The the equivalent to "munition grade" would just be common quality without intricate decorations. Many medieval swords are in excellent conditions, but due to the tradition of explicitly not polishing antique blades, they seem to be in much worse conditions than they actually are, of course I'm not talking about the ones that are indeed badly corroded--often found buried in soil near battlefields. More specimens have been turning up in private collections since the popularization of the Internet.
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Post by blairbob on May 11, 2022 4:20:39 GMT
I instigated this. Give me a huzzah. It's ok, I'll give myself one! This has been fascinating. Moreso than anything of late. And something I would never get to do in person with the people I know. Oh, I just saw that Kane is on youtube.
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Post by pgandy on May 11, 2022 11:47:02 GMT
@ Jussi It is good hearing from you again. Your posts have always been informative.
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