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Post by jack88 on Nov 2, 2021 2:39:59 GMT
In regards to that Facebook post and just in general, I really don't understand the staunch opposition to cleaning/polishing swords. I understand you don't want to cause any damage to an antique, or make it look completely brand new, but I look at it like "If I was this sword, how would I want to look?" To me a lot of what some people may say is "removing history" is typically just removing a history of neglect and lack of care. I am against removing steel, but otherwise "patina" to me is just careless handling of a sword. Point to me the difference between patina and rust. That being said, my AN XIII I have generally left in its original condition with very light polishing of the brass. Silver on the other hand I will always polish, I should let my 1796 go to semprini for a couple of months just to make a point. It looks like complete trash if I do, so much better if polished. It is silver-plated which from what I can tell degrades much faster than low-grade silver. I really don't understand the staunch opposition to *a sword owner* cleaning/polishing *his or her own* swords. There is a strange cult that believes allowing a sword to age to near rust is desirable to "show" its age. I personally like antiques as near to the day issued as possible, though I won't remove steel to do so. But brass/silver are very simple to shine up. I concur that what comes up now regarding rotary engraving tools is only the Dremel. Quite disturbing. Rotary engraving devices (mostly hand driven either by the engraver or his underling) were already in use long before the Classical period. And they worked very hard materials with those rather primitive contraptions too. That we do not see them come up in a search does not mean they were not there much later too, in one form or another. Foot powered systems with pullies and belts come to mind like one still could see not too long ago in far away places. Look, lets be clear. You translate what you think you see as probably made by a rotary tool and think ,,damn Dremel oh f2ck'' or something along those lines. I think that what you see and think of as made by an electrical Dremel like devise could just as well have been made with another rotary devise, a more ,,modern'' say 18th C. version of the Classical period design. All I see and call ,,rotary'' is something that looks like what pops up in your channel images and you call ,,looks like made by rotary devise''. Does not mean that it WAS made by a rotary device at all. I should have been more clear about that in my comments above. My bad. What we both seem to forget is that what you think of as made by a rotary device may have been made by push engraving or chase engraving, with or without the use of acids, rotary driven bits or some other method or combination, we do not know about at the moment. All you have to do is take your Dremel and some engraving bits and cut a nice long channel in some scrap iron or steel. Look at the results under the microscope and see what scars the Dremel leaves behind in the channel. Probably best to use different speeds and different bits. Do not think they could reach 1500 rpm in the 18th C. Then again, who knows? I think that is the only way to put your worries to rest. Really, I do not see any signs of trickery. No alarm bells going off. This all reminds me of when I first used the 10x and 20 x microscope. Saw awesome stuff that was not really there, at least it was not what I thought it was. Luckily my mentor set me straight. That's a problem with these scopes and it takes some time to get used to. Interpretation of the information. Cheers. I've searched and have been unable to find a rotary device from the 18th century. Those beaded designs do bother me some. As I see it still this sword at worst was made in the early 20th century for the 1916 coronation. There is absolutely zero chance the leather is new, it is quite aged. The Hungarians seem to argue to shape the inscription is in, that it should show wear from time. Not so sure of that, looking at my Young Guard saber the inscription is in pristine shape despite the blue/gilt showing a lot of wear. There is one place near the edge of the inscription though that would put it in the area the blade would've been sharpened, I do not think this blade has ever been sharpened, it would surely show degradation there. That does lend some to the opinion it is the early 20th century, which would give me a bone to pick with the auction house.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 2, 2021 10:33:50 GMT
Inscriptions on the 18th C. stuff I have are in good condition and why not. Whether etch or engraving, the channels go quite deep. Some parts can more superficial than others, okay, but still . I do not see this as an argument against your sabre's age. Secondly, about part of the inscription being near or on the edge and thus should have been worn, filed, off, also does not stick. If the sabre was ever sharpened the work would mostly been done on the front half of the blade, from say the middle up to the tip. The lower parts in general were hardly ever sharpened. The only way an inscription will be removed, or show signs of wear, age as the Hungarians call it, for sure is through excessive cleaning. As far as we know this was done with fine sand as a medium, mixed with some oil. That could be compared to a scrub with like 40 grit paper or worse maybe. That hurts. That will strip everything clean to the bone when done repeatedly. Not only the edge but the entire blade. Your blade does not show the effects. So what? Lots of blades of the period with inscriptions do not show any wear. The most inscription wear I see on my French blades is on the lower, inscribed, part of the edge. There the inscription can be removed entirely or very much worn down. There was almost never any sharpening done down there. So how come? Because steel scabbards. As the inscribed area is also the fattest part of the blade, every time the blade is sheathed or unsheathed there will be some friction between fat part of the blade and mouth piece and the holding spring is one hell of a scraper too. As your scabbard is a leather over wood affair and the wood in most cases buts right up to the inside of the metal mouth piece to grip the blade, no springs, no narrow mouth piece entree needed, your blade should show far less, if any, wear in the inscribed part. If you look inside a wood core scabbard in general the wood is only quite black near the end, near where the ricasso is gripped. Lower down the blade channel the wood can look quite untouched and clean.
Another item that comes up again and again is that darn coronation theme. As I tried to explain in our email conversation to me this is bogus (too). Just look at your inscription. Is it very sophisticated? No. It looks like many inscriptions of an early period. Rather child like, like what in Germany is called ,,Bauern Kunst'' and in the rest of the world something like ,,Primitive or Naive Art . You can see this everywhere, in painting, furniture, sculpture, etc. Does the FB group and the Hungarians really think that a sabre made for a coronation (for pete's sake), would show this unsophisticated, rather primitive art work, charming as it may be for just those reasons? I don't think so. All stops would have been pulled. The best craftsmen put to work. I have until now never seen this elusive coronation sabre, but I bet the artwork there would look quite different. The best of the best. Ultra Super. Maybe not directly in design as probably the old designs were copied, but in execution for sure. The grip work and the scabbard work all fit the ,,Bauern Kunst'' theme. There are file marks neatly done in the right places etc. Absolutely nothing that makes me nervous. The grade of the work fits in nicely with the grade of the art etch work and for a coronation piece all of this does not make sense. All of the above would show many levels up in execution than presented here.
To me the design looks A okay, of the period, etched for the most part I think, maybe some push engraving done here and there and there is absolutely nothing that catches my eye as fraudulent and my nose for fraud and fake has served me well for over 45 years. I also think those FB'ers and Hungarians should pack it in, shut up, go home and bleeding f@ck off now. They have no argument, no facts, nada. Only mud slinging to see what sticks and ruin everybody's good mood. No objective thinking, only subjective jammering that starts looking like just plain sad old envy trolling more and more. They bore me to death. Let's go and do something else for GD's sake.
Cheers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2021 16:00:40 GMT
If I may? The feelings of angst on all of these venues lead to misunderstanding and chest puffing on both sides. How is an objective participant to get across some thoughts that deserve consideration? Add multiple translations and use (Prima Plana for instance) and suddenly there is a wave of dismissal and digging ones heels in (I do it myself at times). My earlier post with another Madonna marked blade sums up my understanding as to why (even the Wagner plate) can be pressed into further examination. Truly old swords being etched or engraved long after the sword had seen service. All of this leads to my interests across many genre but truly only fully understanding a couple of decades and really only honing finely to a handful of variations found during one decade. The write ups from a few are wonderful but imo, they can lead to an all in poker stance waiting for contradiction. Indeed, books and outlooks amended as the years go on. A recent one I was reading and passing on is an amendment of understanding regarding a maxim written by an authority (Robert Wilkinson-Latham). Anywho Measure twice and cut once Cheers GC
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Post by jack88 on Nov 3, 2021 3:21:23 GMT
If I may? The feelings of angst on all of these venues lead to misunderstanding and chest puffing on both sides. How is an objective participant to get across some thoughts that deserve consideration? Add multiple translations and use (Prima Plana for instance) and suddenly there is a wave of dismissal and digging ones heels in (I do it myself at times). My earlier post with another Madonna marked blade sums up my understanding as to why (even the Wagner plate) can be pressed into further examination. Truly old swords being etched or engraved long after the sword had seen service. All of this leads to my interests across many genre but truly only fully understanding a couple of decades and really only honing finely to a handful of variations found during one decade. The write ups from a few are wonderful but imo, they can lead to an all in poker stance waiting for contradiction. Indeed, books and outlooks amended as the years go on. A recent one I was reading and passing on is an amendment of understanding regarding a maxim written by an authority (Robert Wilkinson-Latham). Anywho Measure twice and cut once Cheers GC Well I will use the two main examples of criticism I can give to why two different people were so easily dismissed, these refuted essentially turned their arguments into "believe me I know what I'm talking about" with no evidence: 1. The first was on another forum where a user made the claim the inscription was fake due to the Madonna not holding a baby. This was easily disproven as there are several published reputable examples of the Madonna with hands in prayer position. 2. The poster you refer to regarding the misidentification of the sword as a "prima plana". I looked back at that to make sure I hadn't misinterpreted it. He said that the sword was not a Madonna saber but a prima plana. Those are infantry sabers and not even of the same class/size. Difficult to listen to people who are so demonstrably wrong off the start and their argument devolves into "believe me". Evidence is king in this hobby, making unfounded claims without reasoning goes nowhere. All of this being said I am skeptical of the inscription. Currently unsure If I am going to send it back or not, I do not like having something like this in my possession lose its re-sale ability due to its authenticity being in question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 3:44:16 GMT
I think if you look further at the term 'prima plana', imo, it goes beyond the infantry. Be that as it may, it is the engagement of discourse that can easily get out of hand. Spending more time on it seems waste to me.
Happy hunting GC
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Post by treeslicer on Nov 3, 2021 4:24:31 GMT
Thank God that we're here instead of on Farcebook.
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Post by jack88 on Nov 3, 2021 12:44:10 GMT
I think if you look further at the term 'prima plana', imo, it goes beyond the infantry. Be that as it may, it is the engagement of discourse that can easily get out of hand. Spending more time on it seems waste to me. Happy hunting GC Yep, agreed. Every instance of a prima plana blade I can find is an infantry blade. The only translation error I can possibly think of is that he means the blade inscription is false where the rest is authentic, otherwise I don't get what he is saying and it is just wrong. cheers Thank God that we're here instead of on Farcebook. Agreed, but I do post my writeups to facebook. Would be nice to drive some more members to the forum. If we could get more historical types showing up to post their blades and write-ups that would be great for the community.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2021 14:24:12 GMT
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