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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 22, 2021 13:29:51 GMT
I ordered a wakizashi bokken and it finally arrived yesterday. I bought it from a place called "Knives Remembered", with whom I've never done business with before. I chose them because nobody, and I mean NOBODY has any of these things in stock. Some kind of worldwide shortage apparently. No matter, it was $20 with shipping and actually quite nice, very solid red oak and it's got the tsuka wrapped in cotton- not bad at all.  However, I felt it was too long. Out of the box it was only a slight bit shorter than my katana bokken. That's ok actually, because "wakizashi" apparently means "shorter than my other sword" and they can vary in length considerably. I cut it down to match the dimensions of the sword at the Met Museum ( www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22645 ) which seems about "average" to me. In retrospect, the next time I want a waki bokken, I'll just buy a regular length and cut it down.  I was fooling around with it a little bit this morning, just trying to feel it out. It's interesting to say the least, but I think I'm going to like it. I'll be spending the next few weeks trying to find every source I can on technique and trying different things out. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 22, 2021 15:08:58 GMT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 22, 2021 15:56:01 GMT
I took one look at that and said "that looks a cut down bokken". Looks like I nailed it. 😊 Congratulations on your find.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 22, 2021 16:08:43 GMT
I took one look at that and said "that looks a cut down bokken". Looks like I nailed it. 😊 Congratulations on your find. I actually went through some effort to buy a wakizashi bokken specifically. Turns ot to have been largely wasted effort. In any event, the one I got isn't half bad, wasn't expensive, and will certainly do the intended job. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 22, 2021 16:42:34 GMT
Mitsugi Saotome Shihan, of Aikido, has a video out there on his two-sword method. I am not aware of Morihei Ueshiba O-Sensei teaching any such material when he founded Aikido and I haven't seen the material appear in any other of his direct student lineages.
Short version, it's neat to see what someone came up with for simultaneous katana and wakizashi use, but even as an Aikido practitioner I am somewhat dubious of Aikiken. Practitioners of JSA will know what I mean when they see it.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 22, 2021 17:03:47 GMT
Yeah, there is a lot of bullshido out there when it comes to JSA. In truth, there are no schools existing today with lineage that date back more than 100 years or so. Even the "authentic" Japan based schools are, for lack of better words, "reproductions". That is not to say they don't teach useful things. If you are looking to learn of the old school ways of medieval Japan, you are really searching for a unicorn. As for my journey into dual wielding, I'm going to probably bash together many styles (in the spirit of Musashi) and try to figure out what works best, regardless of it's origin. I am looking at Filipino escrima, HEMA, and JSA. I'm sure somewhere in all that there is a common core based on human motion and mechanics. Making my own "bullshido" along the way  But I'm doing it for funsies, so whatever.... |
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Post by markus313 on Aug 22, 2021 17:13:42 GMT
Cool! Already looking for a waki boffer  |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 22, 2021 17:14:44 GMT
I'd like to read your opinion on what you found out is working compared to the Spanish Destreza.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 23, 2021 19:51:25 GMT
The Spanish style looks very interesting from what I've seen of it so far. I wonder if they would fall into the trap of "patterning " themselves by expecting their opponent to be predictable. It happens often in systems that are very formalized and only fight themselves.
It does have some impressive thrusts. I'm going to have to look closely at this.
If the drawings are accurate, then there is no way I'm sword fighting while buck naked...
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Post by Murffy on Aug 23, 2021 20:00:13 GMT
I really like the looks of that waki-bokken.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 24, 2021 7:10:41 GMT
Destreza obviously has a footwork different to other European fencing schools and JSA also afaik.
No lunging f.e.
I'd like to know if there are similarities between them, some universal body mechanics thing?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 24, 2021 12:15:13 GMT
If the drawings are accurate, then there is no way I'm sword fighting while buck naked... The name of the game is distraction. 😁😁 Might add some blue paint with that. 😁😁😁 A very important rule of combat-psych your adversary out. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 24, 2021 13:03:10 GMT
Yeah, distraction!
The real mean swordfighters didn't use a shorter blade in the offhand but a hand puppet!
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 24, 2021 14:37:28 GMT
Destreza obviously has a footwork different to other European fencing schools and JSA also afaik. No lunging f.e. I'd like to know if there are similarities between them, some universal body mechanics thing? I'm not sure I want to imagine in my head two naked dudes fighting each other with a sword in one hand and a puppet in the other....  From the limited Destrenza documents and videos I've looked at over the past few days, I'm having difficulty relating that style to any common body mechanics that I know from JSA. Destrenza seem to favor having the sword already at full extension with the body to the side face, leaving the feet to do all the work. This would seem to limit the biomechanics of the arm/shoulder area. It looks quite dangerous at the higher skill levels, I wouldn't want to fight against it without knowing what I'm doing (at least not for real anyways- sparring is still on the table) I'll have to study it and maybe try some of the moves myself to see if I can suss it out a bit more. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Sept 7, 2021 16:41:14 GMT
I've recently become aware of Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū, which includes techniques for two sword use. This claims a lineage back to Miyamoto Musashi. I am naturally dubious of such a claim, but there are, indeed, videos out there of respectable older gentlemen performing demonstrations of this school at notable events. Overall, the demonstrated style seems quite rigid, so the degree to which the system remains as Musashi would have practiced it is unknowable. From the basic kamae and a few techniques I found demonstrated, it looks as though Saotome Shihan may have based his system on this ryuha.
My modern skepticism is meant as no disrespect to those who attempt to transmit traditions exactly as they were taught to them. There is cultural benefit to this and for those who seek "authenticity" this is most valuable.
I have the personal bias of seeking kaizen (continual improvement) and there is even a legend of Musashi asking his protege what his goals were. "To one day be as skilled as you," was the reply. Musashi purportedly chastised the student, saying, "How dare you set your sights so low." So, how one receives the school can be varied, but for the purposes of this thread it may be worth researching.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2021 21:08:14 GMT
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Post by chrisparker on Oct 18, 2021 6:56:21 GMT
Yeah, there is a lot of bullshido out there when it comes to JSA. In truth, there are no schools existing today with lineage that date back more than 100 years or so. Even the "authentic" Japan based schools are, for lack of better words, "reproductions". That is not to say they don't teach useful things. If you are looking to learn of the old school ways of medieval Japan, you are really searching for a unicorn. As for my journey into dual wielding, I'm going to probably bash together many styles (in the spirit of Musashi) and try to figure out what works best, regardless of it's origin. I am looking at Filipino escrima, HEMA, and JSA. I'm sure somewhere in all that there is a common core based on human motion and mechanics. Making my own "bullshido" along the way But I'm doing it for funsies, so whatever.... Hmm.... what? Speaking as a member of one school that dates back to 1645, and another that dates back to 1448, I have to say that, simply, that's completely incorrect. Have many schools changed in large and small ways over the years? Yes. Does that mean that they're all "reproductions"? Not even close. We have records showing the same kata and waza being taught now that were taught "back then"... so... yeah, no. You may be confusing it with HEMA, which is pretty much nothing but reproduction... koryu are very much the opposite. I would also suggest that that is not "in the spirit of Musashi", just an fyi... a bit more Bruce Lee, or MMA than anything else... |
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Post by chrisparker on Oct 18, 2021 7:14:33 GMT
I've recently become aware of Hyōhō Niten Ichi-ryū, which includes techniques for two sword use. This claims a lineage back to Miyamoto Musashi. I am naturally dubious of such a claim, but there are, indeed, videos out there of respectable older gentlemen performing demonstrations of this school at notable events. Overall, the demonstrated style seems quite rigid, so the degree to which the system remains as Musashi would have practiced it is unknowable. From the basic kamae and a few techniques I found demonstrated, it looks as though Saotome Shihan may have based his system on this ryuha. My modern skepticism is meant as no disrespect to those who attempt to transmit traditions exactly as they were taught to them. There is cultural benefit to this and for those who seek "authenticity" this is most valuable. I have the personal bias of seeking kaizen (continual improvement) and there is even a legend of Musashi asking his protege what his goals were. "To one day be as skilled as you," was the reply. Musashi purportedly chastised the student, saying, "How dare you set your sights so low." So, how one receives the school can be varied, but for the purposes of this thread it may be worth researching. Our (Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu) lineage does indeed go back to Musashi as our founder. Our line is unbroken through to the current soke (head of the system), Kajiya Takanori-soke. One point of the school is the idea of Jisso Enman, or "without adaptation", which is how Musashi-sensei wanted his art to be preserved... but the techniques themselves, especially the Nito Seiho are from Musashi himself (a kinda "bare-bones", loose description is within the Gorin no Sho, written by Musashi himself). I do not know of Saotome-sensei having studied with us at any time or in any capacity, though... in fact, a quick look around gives reports that Saotome based his methods of a movie about Musashi, not on anything Musashi taught himself (and yeah, aside from a couple of superficial similarities, I see little to no connection between anything Saotome does and what we do in HNIR... in fact, a fair bit of it is pretty much opposite of what we do). As far as the legend related at the end there, yeah, that's pretty much what it is... a lovely story, but not something that is based in fact. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Oct 18, 2021 15:27:29 GMT
Thank you for clarifying those points, it is exciting to find an HNIR practitioner among our members. I had always found Saotome Shihan's sword work... curious. With all respect, as an Aikido practitioner myself, I have seen many Aikido instructors adopt and adapt weapon systems for the purpose of improving people's Aikido training. I usually find this to be several steps away from the original martial intent to the point where the resultant system seems unlikely to work in any situation other than choreographed kumitachi with a very compliant partner.
I admit I am still reading about HNIR as a system. Since you are a practitioner, could you recommend any reputable sources about the art and/or are you aware of any official schools in the continental US?
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Post by chrisparker on Oct 19, 2021 8:04:34 GMT
Hi Tera, Yeah, that's a pretty accurate description of Aiki-buki approaches... they're extensions of the teaching of Aiki (do and jutsu) principles, but aren't really "weapon" systems themselves in terms of being focused on the combative application of the weapons. This leads to any number of issues when viewed as "kenjutsu" or "jodo" systems (or lessons)... but most Aikido practitioners I know are more than aware of this. With regards to Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in the US, we have no representatives there at present (although there is a couple of people who have trained in other lines, I believe). The closest with a connection to Kajiya-soke would be in Canada. Simply put, koryu is rarely on your doorstep... for my studies and further instruction, my teachers for Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu are in Perth (the opposite side of Australia to myself... think the distance between New York and LA), or in Japan... and for Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, it's Japan only. Studying these arts often involves some sacrifice and shugyo (journeying)... which can take the form of a fair bit of travel! I actually have someone coming over to see me from New Zealand, as I'm the closest for him... so it always comes down to how bad you want it! For reputable sources, this is the schools official website: www.hyohonitenichiryu.comAdditionally, Colin Watkins, a senior practitioner presently living in the Philippines, has maintained a good online resource for years: www.hyoho.comOf course, there is also the Gorin no Sho... but, considering it was written specifically for members of Musashi's school, it's not something that I feel can be fully properly understood without exposure to and instruction in the school... and you have to be very, very careful whose version you read... some are good, others are... kindling, at best. |
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But I'm doing it for funsies, so whatever....
