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Post by MichaelRS on Aug 16, 2021 3:34:50 GMT
It seems the tsuka on production Katana are roughly 10 inches.
But does having a 12 - 14 tsuka actually translate into more leverage or power or the like for better... performance?
Or is it just because if one has bigger hands it feels better?
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Post by MichaelRS on Aug 16, 2021 4:28:18 GMT
Very informative. Thank you for the link. The main points I got from that is that the longer tuska does not get in the way and it's beneficial in moving the balance point and with some aspecrs of control. But do we know if there's any benefit to it when it comes to striking/cutting? |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 16, 2021 13:23:04 GMT
I love my oniyuri with the extended tsuka (a "three hander" ). It certainly does make a noticeable difference in sword performance. And it's useful for close combat for hooking and hitting. In many ways I prefer the longer tsuka in exchange for a shorter blade on a sword with the same overall length.
At the end of the day, it really depends on your fighting style. If you like close fighting, the extended tsuka is something you should look into. If you prefer keeping your distance, then a standard length will be right for you.
I'm not sure if there is a "benefit" as such when it comes to striking/cutting, but it does add a lot of leverage potential so I guess it can hit a little harder. Again, it's really designed for the close in fight. I find that it cuts as well as my other swords, I see neither a benefit nor a disadvantage to it honestly.
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Post by JH Lee on Aug 16, 2021 14:06:00 GMT
I think Rufus said it best. It really depends on your personal style and preferences. If I could add my 2 cents as well, you also want to consider your own body dimensions. Palm size/width and length of your arms in relation to your center of gravity could also make a big difference. Another student at my dojo is basically the same height/weight as I am, but our bodies/limbs are built rather differently. He comfortably wields a 29.5'' blade while I prefer between 26.5'' and 27.5.'' Any longer and I just would not be able to do either batto or noto smoothly.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 16, 2021 16:36:00 GMT
I've only ever seen people using a longer tsuka while doing tameshigiri and I would imagine the extra length could indeed add more speed and power with the same basic amount of energy used. I haven't seen anyone performing kata/iai with one and I haven't seen an iaito or bokken with a longer than average tsuka but this doesn't mean they don't exist, I certainly haven't seen as much as people that actively practice. from what I understand, the power generated is mostly due to the mechanics of the swing and rotation/arc rather than the muscles of the wielder so again, I wouldn't doubt there could be a benefit in a longer tsuka if these mechanics were used properly. I also heard somewhere that the style of Jsa you practice can dictate some or all of the specs of your katana and tsuka, perhaps James Williams practices a style that generally uses a longer tsuka.
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Post by JH Lee on Aug 16, 2021 16:46:01 GMT
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that James Williams created his own style called "Nami ryu." Kendo shinai always have very long tsuka, but this may be less about speed/power and more about control/balance. Maybe a kendoka can help shed some more light on that one.
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Post by MichaelRS on Aug 16, 2021 17:01:50 GMT
Thank you all for your responses and observations. Very educational.
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Post by bradc on Aug 16, 2021 17:51:57 GMT
As mentioned above it really depends on the style of swordsmanship. Both extremes of tsuka length have advantages and disadvantages.
A shorter tsuka has some advantages in nimbleness (quickly changing directions) due to hand positioning. (Yes you can choke your hands up on a longer tsuka) Additionally the longer tsuka can get in the way in some very specific movements, like when they get stuck in your non pulled back kimono sleeves.... (I admit to nothing).
This comes with a compromise on raw power and other aspects mentioned by Rufus in relation to longer tsuka.
I'm personally in a style that uses shorter tsuka on longer swords. My main practice sword has an 8.5 sun tsuka (two fingers between hands) on a 2.45 shaku blade. Longer tsuka do feel more powerful in cuts but are incompatible with some waza in MJER.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 16, 2021 19:05:50 GMT
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that James Williams created his own style called "Nami ryu." Kendo shinai always have very long tsuka, but this may be less about speed/power and more about control/balance. Maybe a kendoka can help shed some more light on that one. From my days in Kendo I am fairly certain that the long tsuka on the shinai is simply to allow room for the padded glove. Those things are really thick. And remember that Kendo is a sport where the gear has been designed accordingly. It bears only a passing resemblance to the JSA fighting styles of antiquity. |
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Post by JH Lee on Aug 16, 2021 20:17:35 GMT
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that James Williams created his own style called "Nami ryu." Kendo shinai always have very long tsuka, but this may be less about speed/power and more about control/balance. Maybe a kendoka can help shed some more light on that one. From my days in Kendo I am fairly certain that the long tsuka on the shinai is simply to allow room for the padded glove. Those things are really thick. And remember that Kendo is a sport where the gear has been designed accordingly. It bears only a passing resemblance to the JSA fighting styles of antiquity. |
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Post by novak77 on Aug 16, 2021 22:49:37 GMT
Could just be me, and the style I practice, but if the tsuka gets too long, I find it getting caught up on myself, and, or my clothes.
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Post by MichaelRS on Aug 17, 2021 2:25:07 GMT
Thank you all for your insights and observations. I really appreciate it
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 17, 2021 15:18:04 GMT
Could just be me, and the style I practice, but if the tsuka gets too long, I find it getting caught up on myself, and, or my clothes. Nope, not just you. Using the longer tsuka isn't just a matter of picking up the sword and doing what you would do with a standard length. It's similar, but different enough to require some practice with it. |
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Post by novak77 on Aug 17, 2021 16:29:24 GMT
Could just be me, and the style I practice, but if the tsuka gets too long, I find it getting caught up on myself, and, or my clothes. Nope, not just you. Using the longer tsuka isn't just a matter of picking up the sword and doing what you would do with a standard length. It's similar, but different enough to require some practice with it. Makes sense. I think a lot of us have muscle memory built into our practice, and those little changes are enough to mess with that.
Also if the tsuka is too short, it messes with me too. I feel like I am going to lose my sword, especially during noto.
Cheers
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,805
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Post by tera on Aug 17, 2021 16:45:21 GMT
Same experience here. When I've handled longer tsuka katana they felt awkward and difficult to use. Note, that is only indicative they weren't suitable for how I was using them, not that they are fundamentally bad.
Different task, different tool. There are undoubtably cases where longer tsuka makes sense. Bugei produces several and I have faith they know what they are doing. I would just suggest finding someone whose training specializes in the use of this design or it may seem like a 'poor fit'.
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Post by bradc on Aug 17, 2021 18:27:57 GMT
Same experience here. When I've handled longer tsuka katana they felt awkward and difficult to use. Note, that is only indicative they weren't suitable for how I was using them, not that they are fundamentally bad. Different task, different tool. There are undoubtably cases where longer tsuka makes sense. Bugei produces several and I have faith they know what they are doing. I would just suggest finding someone whose training specializes in the use of this design or it may seem like a 'poor fit'. Most production Katana (and even some Iaito) seem to favour "longer" tsuka nowadays. Bugei ones can be quite unwieldy if you aren't used to that style. In my branch of MJER its pretty common for people to end up shortening the tsuka after ordering as we like them quite short. Even a 12" tsuka feels like a Nagamaki to me nowadays  |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 17, 2021 18:40:05 GMT
I had a learning curve when I got my Oniyuri. I would snag my sleeves, bump my own wrist, etc. I almost threw it away. But I learned how to use it properly, and I love it! It's my number one. I like the ability to change from a more or less "normal" style of use, to a shorter mid-balance that increases the speed, then I'm able to strike out to full extension instantly. It's more used almost like a claymore where it's held more towards the center and both ends are now your striking weapons.
It's certainly NOT for everybody, your fighting style is actually fairly limited to the close-in attack: which is probably why the long tsuka swords aren't really that popular (re. the recent thread on longsword vs. kat). It's not a well rounded jack-of-all-trades like a standard issue katana, but used in context... oh my!
Like most other things concerning actual sword usage it comes down to personal preference. It's neither "better" or "worse" than anything else, it's simply one more tool you can use if you need it or if it suits your style.
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dotanuki
Member
Train and learn :)
Posts: 9
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Post by dotanuki on Aug 17, 2021 18:42:41 GMT
It's a case of ask your sensei what is correct for your style.
I used both in different ryu and for me personally it took a little time getting used to a 13 inch tsuka from a 9 inch tsuka in the other style.
But al depends on the style and what your teacher/ryu teaches.
As long as it works for you and you can do the school's techniques correctly is al that matters.
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Post by JH Lee on Aug 17, 2021 19:24:56 GMT
I wonder how much personalization the average swordsman had available to them "back in the day." Maybe many had to adjust themselves to match the sword they were given/inherited rather than the other way around? Just speculating.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 17, 2021 20:11:32 GMT
I wonder how much personalization the average swordsman had available to them "back in the day." Maybe many had to adjust themselves to match the sword they were given/inherited rather than the other way around? Just speculating. Unless the user bought his sword on the second-hand market, then they were all customized to the user. Back then, a buyer would go to the local smith to buy the blade. The smith would have a pile of blades laying around and the buyer would select 5 or 6 to try out. They would throw a shirasaya on it (temporary handle) and then the buyer would try it out to see which one worked best. After selecting the blade, it would be sent to a polisher and other specialists who would then put the koshirae together to finish the sword according to what the buyer wanted and could afford. While the swords were of the same general design, there was quite a bit of variations in curvature and length. It wasn't until very late in Japan's history that the government standardized swords; before then it was whatever the user felt was best. If you look at old photos and artwork, you can see an astonishing variety of lengths and shapes. |
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