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Post by jack88 on Jul 28, 2021 19:55:49 GMT
 Hello all, this will be the first sword review of my collection. By popular demand, I decided to start with my 1796 HC Officer's Undress sword. This sword has the position of honor in my display, even earning its own print displayed above it in my office.  
1796 Heavy Cavalry Officer's Undress Sword
History:The 1796 Troopers variant was directly copied from the Austrian 1769 pallasch after the "failure" of the 1788 model. The Board of Cavalry General Officers commented that it was "from long and repeated experience," to be "unmanageable, owing to the length of the blade and the weight of the hilt" Matt Easton recently disagreed extensively in his YouTube video: Troopers variant:
 An absolutely beautiful variant of the 1796 with bluing and gilt.  The sword was designed with two different variants: the troopers with a disc hilt and the officer's variant with a "ladder and honeysuckle" hilt design. With the usual disdain for their troopers, the British officer's and trooper's variants had distinctly different handling characteristics. The trooper's model was considered heavy and unwieldy, while the Officer's Undress is a graceful, agile, capable blade. The sword was issued to the British heavies and is best known today for its performance at the Battle of Waterloo and Peninsular campaign. Unlike their French counterparts, British Cavalry understood that the natural tendency of cavalrymen was to hack at their opponents and developed their blades for the cut. The French generally concentrated on the thrust and designed their AN XIII to reflect their combat manuals. The original hatchet point on the 1796 was largely incapable of thrusting attacks, and you will find most issued 1796's both officers and troopers to be modified into spear points described first as happening "days before the battle" of Waterloo to counter the cuirasses worn by the French heavies. For many years, this practice carried on of the sword in use, and many unscrupulous modern merchants erroneously claim Waterloo provenance due to this modification to generate sales. Spear pointed and hatchet tips exampled:  Sgt Charles Ewart of the Scot's Greys taking an French Eagle from the 45th line regiment at Waterloo  Description of the event: "The officer who carried it [the Eagle of the 45th Regiment of Line Infantry] and I had a short contest for it; he thrust for my groin, I parried it off and cut him through the head; in a short time after whilst contriving how to carry the eagle and follow my regiment I heard a lancer coming behind me; I wheeled round to face him, and in the act of doing so he threw his lance at me which I threw off to my right with my sword and cut from the chin upwards through the teeth. His lance merely grazed the skin on my right side, which bled a good deal but was well very soon. I was next attacked by a foot soldier who, after firing at me, charged me with the bayonet; I parried it and cut him down through the head; this finished the contest for the eagle which I was ordered by General Ponsonby to carry to the rear." Characteristics:The overall length of the sword itself is 36 1/4 inches The blade is 31 3/8 inches Scabbard 35 inches Point of balance 5 3/4 inches from the hilt The sword weighs 886g or 1.95lbs Quite a massive difference from the troopers variant I have found online, which measures in at: 39 1/4 inches overall 36 1/5 inch blade 2.55 lb blade. ADDED MY TROOPER STATS:
40 inches overall 35 inch blade 6.5 inch point of balance from hilt 2.4 lb blade Given that this troopers variant had an unmodified tip, its characteristics are undoubtedly different; if one of you has a spear-pointed 1796 HC, I would be interested in hearing its stats. Nonetheless, even with a 5 inch shorter blade, the sword is over a pound heavier than the officer's version. My 1796 HC Undress:My sword is a bit unusual as officer's models go. It has an extended beak pommel which is highly unusual for the HC. I have seen some variants of the 1796 LC have similar grips.  My grip has some cracks in the leather but retains all of its wirings. Overall the grip is in fine condition. Up close of the grip and under belly of the basket for discussion of whether or not the possibility of there once being a basket liner.  Up close of the writing on the scabbard. Now under debate of whether or not the scabbard is a marriage to the blade given the blade does not have a "G" stamp on the ricasso which apparently stood for "Good" after inspection. Very much interested in continuing this discussion.  The ladder honeysuckle hilt is aesthetically pleasing and provides a good amount of hand protection without being overly large. Considering I have freakishly large hands, but the British Heavies were large men of similar stature to myself.   Here is the modified tip, which at least 3" has been taken off of the blade in reducing it to a spear point.  *************************************************UPDATE*****************************************
I was finally able to grab a 1796 HC troopers variant. These have become incredibly difficult to get and go for stupid prices. I found this one in Spain and due to its lack of markings the sword came from the Peninsular War. Britain exported a large amount of these for the Portuguese and Spanish heavy cavalry. Completed my Scotland Forever! display:  This specimen is entirely unmodified, it has its original langets, the guard is not cut and the point is a hatchet point. Quite rare completely unmodified.   The uncut guard, with my hand for size reference.  Grip still in great condition.  Conclusion:The 1796 HC is often referred to as a crowbar, a heavy blundering beast of a sword. That may likely be true of the trooper variant, but I can attest that the Officer's Undress is an entirely different and capable sword. It may weigh less than my 1796 LC Officers sword; I will have to weigh it and compare it when I move to that review. Thanks for reading! Obligatory Sharpe picture with his 1796 HC trooper variant:  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2021 21:23:49 GMT
Thank for the review. A question I have is if there are any notes of these having liners inside the basket. I had raised this question about later honeysuckle models (as having bought an 1821 hc officer sword). Lo and behold, it seems some did and some don't but I wonder if your sword might have once had a liner.
Cheers
GC
I also meant to ask if you can share an image of the scabbard top, upright, so we can see the Henry Osborn details. The backstrap ears lend it to be Osborn and O&G.
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Post by pellius on Jul 28, 2021 22:19:54 GMT
Thank you for a great review of your very nice sword.
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Post by snubnoze on Jul 28, 2021 22:46:38 GMT
Great review and I love the historical background. This is what drew me towards collecting antique examples over the reproduction sword market.
Is this the first example to use the honeysuckle guard? The fact that this is also a symmetrical guard makes it even more appealing to me. This model is certainly desirable for me, however with my budget I'm best to stick with the cheap Swiss stuff or perhaps Austrian if I can find them as I imagine this would command a high price. I'm sure the beak pommel makes this even more valuable.
Nice piece you are lucky to have this in your collection. Now I'm inspired to watch "Sharpe's Waterloo" that I have saved on my computer from a while back. I have seen "Waterloo" 1970 which is obviously an excellent film.
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Post by jack88 on Jul 28, 2021 23:02:27 GMT
Thank for the review. A question I have is if there are any notes of these having liners inside the basket. I had raised this question about later honeysuckle models (as having bought an 1821 hc officer sword). Lo and behold, it seems some did and some don't but I wonder if your sword might have once had a liner. Cheers GC I also meant to ask if you can share an image of the scabbard top, upright, so we can see the Henry Osborn details. The backstrap ears lend it to be Osborn and O&G. I've found no examples that have basket liners, have you? There are no traces on mine of ever having one. I love the honeysuckle design. I'll take a better photo of the script and edit it in later. I had a poster in another group tell me that it was not an Osborn, he had the same sword, but I have found nothing to eliminate it completely of why it is not marked. Thank you for a great review of your very nice sword. Thank you Pellius Great review and I love the historical background. This is what drew me towards collecting antique examples over the reproduction sword market. Is this the first example to use the honeysuckle guard? The fact that this is also a symmetrical guard makes it even more appealing to me. This model is certainly desirable for me, however with my budget I'm best to stick with the cheap Swiss stuff or perhaps Austrian if I can find them as I imagine this would command a high price. I'm sure the beak pommel makes this even more valuable. Nice piece you are lucky to have this in your collection. Now I'm inspired to watch "Sharpe's Waterloo" that I have saved on my computer from a while back. I have seen "Waterloo" 1970 which is obviously an excellent film. I agree I bought some repro's in the beginning before I started spending big money on my collection, and now they just don't do it for me. They don't even feel remotely right compared to the real thing. I have a 1796 LC Officer's and an 1811 Blucher, Cold Steel's 1796 does feel like the Blucher, but nothing like the actual 1796. I'll be posting to sell all my repros here soon, want to make some more room. I am unaware of any other honeysuckle guards before this, but I could easily be corrected. This model is certainly a difficult one to attain both due to scarcity and the premium they carry. There are a couple currently on the market. I spent years looking for a decent one. I am Swiss and would like to own something Swiss, not a huge fan of their modern stuff. I kind of like the Elite Company Briquets they made pre-Napoleonic era. Prob buy one at some point. The beak pommel is extraordinarily rare on the HC, haven't seen another. A couple on LC models and they carried a steep premium. Love the Sharpe series, always thought it was ridiculous he didn't shorten his HC. Plus the Sword episode was strange that they remade him a 1796 HC instead of a nice Spanish style blade. Hilarious that duel with the two of the carrying HC variants 1796 vs AN XIII on foot. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2021 1:33:14 GMT
My 1821 scroll (Wilki 1869) came with a lot of rust on the inside, where the rest of the sword was very clean and rust free.   It got me to thinking about that it might once have had a liner. A friend well schooled wasn't certain until Matt Easton had an example of an 1821 with a liner. Then as time went by, liners for the 1896 swords popped up on ebay. Red and buff. So, my question to you is regarding if your sword seemed to have more signs of corrosion on the inside. I have a feeler out to a good friend but have yet to read his thoughts about your sword. If you have posted this to this facebook group, I must have missed it. www.facebook.com/groups/iascpost/It is probably Bryce going on about G and GG. It has some foundation that all Osborn swords he (and we) have seen G on all Osborn officer swords. I never set those in stone but there may be some merit. The backstrap ears though, very Osborn. Maybe the fellow swapped out the blades. That's a great sword. Cheers GC |
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 29, 2021 1:33:25 GMT
A very fine review, and a sword to match. Great illustrations. Thank you!
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Post by athelstanexeter on Jul 29, 2021 2:01:07 GMT
My P1796 Heavy Cav Officer still has its hilt liner.
Oddly for a Heavy Cav Officer it has a disc guard but with different piercings to the trooper, a stirrup knucklebow and a plain, smooth mahogany grip.
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Post by markus313 on Jul 29, 2021 7:56:28 GMT
Thank you very much for taking the time to tell us more about this wonderful sword.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 29, 2021 10:45:55 GMT
Very fine review of a very fine sword. May many more follow. Interesting basket liner question too. Good to learn about the Osborn wings. The inside of baskets are magnets for dust. Work like dust bins really. Given some time, dust and the moisture attracted by it could very well have rusted the inside you show us Edelweiss. But it could be aftermath of a liner too. My Spanish sword: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/59625/spanish-espada-montar-oficial-circa with the liner still intact (more or less) shows that the liner, on this example, went between the grip and guard plate and was glued on the knuckle bow near the pommel cap only. A portion was tucked under said cap too with a hole for the tang to pass through. Rest was just free floating so to say. Stiff and hard leather holds up quite well this way. No reason to glue it to the basket. Weak point is the narrow portion of the basket liner just before it enters under the cap. There it will crack over time. This is of course only one method to do it. British may have had other ideas. Cheers. |
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Post by jack88 on Jul 29, 2021 11:20:54 GMT
My 1821 scroll (Wilki 1869) came with a lot of rust on the inside, where the rest of the sword was very clean and rust free. It got me to thinking about that it might once have had a liner. A friend well schooled wasn't certain until Matt Easton had an example of an 1821 with a liner. Then as time went by, liners for the 1896 swords popped up on ebay. Red and buff. So, my question to you is regarding if your sword seemed to have more signs of corrosion on the inside. I have a feeler out to a good friend but have yet to read his thoughts about your sword. If you have posted this to this facebook group, I must have missed it. www.facebook.com/groups/iascpost/It is probably Bryce going on about G and GG. It has some foundation that all Osborn swords he (and we) have seen G on all Osborn officer swords. I never set those in stone but there may be some merit. The backstrap ears though, very Osborn. Maybe the fellow swapped out the blades. That's a great sword. Cheers GC I hadn't considered whether or not it had a basket liner in it before, I don't believe I've ever seen an example with a liner still installed. I went ahead and posted it in the FB group, I've posted there a couple times before and it may have been your friend telling me about the markings. Can't be sure it was quite awhile ago. Glad to hear it is probably still an Osborn, it is a great sword one of my favorite. My P1796 Heavy Cav Officer still has its hilt liner. Oddly for a Heavy Cav Officer it has a disc guard but with different piercings to the trooper, a stirrup knucklebow and a plain, smooth mahogany grip. I'd like to see a picture of that, very unusual. Very fine review of a very fine sword. May many more follow. Interesting basket liner question too. Good to learn about the Osborn wings. The inside of baskets are magnets for dust. Work like dust bins really. Given some time, dust and the moisture attracted by it could very well have rusted the inside you show us Edelweiss. But it could be aftermath of a liner too. My Spanish sword with the liner still intact (more or less) shows that the liner, on this example, went between the grip and guard plate and was glued on the knuckle bow near the pommel cap only. A portion was tucked into said cap too. Rest was just free floating so to say. Stiff and hard leather holds up quite well this way. This is of course only one method to do it. British may have had other ideas. Cheers. The basket of my sword does not seem to have any extra degradation, I can find no evidence of a basket. Possible, though. Thanks for the nice comment, I'll be sure to do more reviews! |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 29, 2021 11:25:36 GMT
Just edited and posted the link to the Montar in my comment above.
You to damn fast Jack!
Cheers.
Edit: Another reason some baskets are more ,,rusty'' on the inside, appart from being virtual dust bins, might be that I found many of the examples I have, have a rather coarse interior compaired to the well polished outside. Lots of ,,casting skin'' remaining.
Baskets of the type shown above are notorious for the difficulty to get inside to polish out said skin. Pure hell.
But maybe they left the insides more or less unpolished because it could be covered with a leather liner anyway.
Questions.
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Post by athelstanexeter on Jul 29, 2021 11:49:00 GMT
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Post by jack88 on Jul 29, 2021 12:01:31 GMT
Just edited and posted the link to the Montar in my comment above. You to damn fast Jack! Cheers. Edit: Another reason some baskets are more ,,rusty'' on the inside, appart from being virtual dust bins, might be that I found many of the examples I have, have a rather coarse interior compaired to the well polished outside. Lots of ,,casting skin'' remaining. Baskets of the type shown above are notorious for the difficulty to get inside to polish out said skin. Pure hell. But maybe they left the insides more or less unpolished because it could be covered with a leather liner anyway. Questions. That Montar is damned beautiful, that Toledo blade is prime quality. Interesting the basket liner has survived to a certain extent, the rest of the swords including the scabbard leather is in great condition. Not sure how I missed that sword in your collection before. Near the peak of Spanish bladesmithing. Very unusual, but what makes you think it is an officer's model? Appears to be a modified troopers to my eyes. |
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Post by athelstanexeter on Jul 29, 2021 12:37:25 GMT
Very unusual, but what makes you think it is an officer's model? Appears to be a modified troopers to my eyes. Because none of the components are troopers except perhaps the diamond reinforcing plate. The disc guard has different piercings for instance, the grip is plain mahogany, not ribbed, and the backstrap has no ears. The blade is officer dimensions, and inlaid with decoration and a GR cypher. Overall weight is about 900g. |
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 29, 2021 14:02:59 GMT
Wood grips often had the ribs (piece of thin rope) glued on them. Glued and wet formed grip leather held it all in place.
There could be remains still of the rope under the back strap?
Cheers.
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Post by jack88 on Jul 29, 2021 15:41:41 GMT
Very unusual, but what makes you think it is an officer's model? Appears to be a modified troopers to my eyes. Because none of the components are troopers except perhaps the diamond reinforcing plate. The disc guard has different piercings for instance, the grip is plain mahogany, not ribbed, and the backstrap has no ears. The blade is officer dimensions, and inlaid with decoration and a GR cypher. Overall weight is about 900g. Can we see the decoration? I was under the impression officer's blades did not have the cypher due to being private purchases and not issued. |
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Jul 30, 2021 0:21:14 GMT
So the officer would use this sword to get undressed? Strange, but that's the Brits for you, I guess!
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Post by bas on Jul 30, 2021 1:37:16 GMT
So the officer would use this sword to get undressed? Strange, but that's the Brits for you, I guess! It's the sword they carried into battle, i.e. when they were out of dress uniform. They had a different 1796 pattern sword for when they were in dress uniform.
The are five different swords covered by the 1796 Pattern:
- 1796 Pattern Infantry officers sword - a spadroon with Pas d'Ane guard and leather scabbard
- 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry sabre - both in trooper and officer version. No dress version was regulated although some regiments did adopt their own mamaluke style sabre for when in dress uniform.
- 1796 Pattern Heavy Cavalry troopers sword - with the round flat disc guard
- 1796 Pattern Heavy Cavalry officers undress sword - same stlye blade as the trooper, but often decorated and with the ladder hilt
- 1796 Pattern Heacy Cavalry officers dress sword - a spadroon with a boatshell hilt and leather scabbard. Also seen with a steel scabbard that is believed was used when the officer wore his sword on campaign.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Jul 30, 2021 2:01:09 GMT
So the officer would use this sword to get undressed? Strange, but that's the Brits for you, I guess! It's the sword they carried into battle, i.e. when they were out of dress uniform. They had a different 1796 pattern sword for when they were in dress uniform.
Thanks! I did know that (I did not know the other points you said, though I should since I watch Matt a lot). It was a joke though. |
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