|
|
Post by tsmspace on Jul 2, 2021 5:51:50 GMT
But I have never seen any technique instructions that I feel properly approach it.
I have seen a lot of hema instruction, but nothing that deals with specifically how to make a cut the most efficient. I am not saying there's NOTHING,, but if there is, I've never seen it, and I don't know where I should be looking.
There are some basic descriptions of katana best efficiency, but they are somewhat limited. I am certain that such discussion is buried in miles of text in many many publications.
It seems to me there should be a place (like a github) where all of the techniques are addressed one by one. I was just outside with my balaur arms 12th century arming sword. It's one handed, has a wide large pommel, has a long blade for a one-hander (maybe 32"), it's a classic shape for it's name, 12th century arming sword. Perhaps the handle is too long. It's a budget sword, which means that the proper way to put an edge on it that cuts is not the same as some higher quality swords, and this is another issue that should be addressed,, best sharpening practices for various qualities of sword steel.
Anyway,, sabers are this thing that I think I figured out how to interpret a handful of instructions, but I still had to goof, have people tell me things, feel like i was figuring it out, and wasn't able to look at an instruction and feel like I could know in advance what to expect from each aspect of the technique (do I lock the wrist, do I try to make the sword whip, do I swing from my shoulder, etc.). There was so much clumsy "
feeling out" in my recent learning, and plenty of times when the technique would change from one strike to the next on the same sword.
It seems like cutting in and of itself is not really approached enough to actually result in good first tries. A successful first attempt will be the result of things people offered for information, tips from memories past, and perhaps actual sword experiences that are pseudo forgotten. Someone going blind and newb would really not have a chance of confidence in what they were doing before doing it. A lot of sword cuts are counter-intuitive, (imo).
anyway what I mean to say, is that there are lots of swords, there are lots of ways to cut with them, and the pictures in hema manuals do not mostly prepare you for the actual cutting motion. Most of the publication is about preparing to perform a cut in a sparring situation, and the cut is displayed as merely a rough motion.
|
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 2, 2021 11:56:11 GMT
That's why you need a teacher.
|
|
|
|
Post by Murffy on Jul 2, 2021 14:43:11 GMT
But I have never seen any technique instructions that I feel properly approach it. I have seen a lot of hema instruction, but nothing that deals with specifically how to make a cut the most efficient. I am not saying there's NOTHING,, but if there is, I've never seen it, and I don't know where I should be looking. There are some basic descriptions of katana best efficiency, but they are somewhat limited. I am certain that such discussion is buried in miles of text in many many publications. It seems to me there should be a place (like a github) where all of the techniques are addressed one by one. I was just outside with my balaur arms 12th century arming sword. It's one handed, has a wide large pommel, has a long blade for a one-hander (maybe 32"), it's a classic shape for it's name, 12th century arming sword. Perhaps the handle is too long. It's a budget sword, which means that the proper way to put an edge on it that cuts is not the same as some higher quality swords, and this is another issue that should be addressed,, best sharpening practices for various qualities of sword steel. Anyway,, sabers are this thing that I think I figured out how to interpret a handful of instructions, but I still had to goof, have people tell me things, feel like i was figuring it out, and wasn't able to look at an instruction and feel like I could know in advance what to expect from each aspect of the technique (do I lock the wrist, do I try to make the sword whip, do I swing from my shoulder, etc.). There was so much clumsy " feeling out" in my recent learning, and plenty of times when the technique would change from one strike to the next on the same sword. It seems like cutting in and of itself is not really approached enough to actually result in good first tries. A successful first attempt will be the result of things people offered for information, tips from memories past, and perhaps actual sword experiences that are pseudo forgotten. Someone going blind and newb would really not have a chance of confidence in what they were doing before doing it. A lot of sword cuts are counter-intuitive, (imo). anyway what I mean to say, is that there are lots of swords, there are lots of ways to cut with them, and the pictures in hema manuals do not mostly prepare you for the actual cutting motion. Most of the publication is about preparing to perform a cut in a sparring situation, and the cut is displayed as merely a rough motion. I think there's value in experimentation and in re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. I'd like to hear more details about what insights you've garnered so far. |
|
tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,805
|
Post by tera on Jul 2, 2021 17:01:43 GMT
I have no experience with HEMA or Western weaponry (that doesn't involve projectiles) but this fellow discusses a similar issue in the Japanese Sword world:
He describes Tate as a version of Budo (presumably Kenjutsu in particular) altered for safety and use in cinema. There is nothing wrong with keeping actors safe, but he points out it creates issues for those who try to learn by emulating something they have seen.
If one person copies Tate, even if they do it especially well, and post videos on Youtube explaining their opinions and findings others may believe this is useful reference material and do the same. The result is a mixture of videos of people practicing Koryu well, Koryu done poorly or newly generated sword 'stuff' (Aikiken), and Tate performed at various levels of accuracy. Many of thr more modern schools were never used in actual combat and cannot be relied upon to teach you how to actually cut a target. Ultimately, it leads to a muddled mess nigh impossible for a beginner to filter.
Of course, this fellow also advertises himself as an instructor of both Tate and Kenjutsu and claims he can do so vai distance-learning tutoring, so he has a vested interest in pointing all of this out. Whether you can learn with webcams and hundreds of miles between you and your Sensei even if you find a legitimate one is another question altogether.
|
|
|
|
Post by jyamada on Jul 2, 2021 18:00:03 GMT
That's why you need a teacher. This ^. Anyone can eventually learn to cut on their own. Sharp things cut things. But will they do it with efficient technique and good body mechanics and form? Most probably not. The first thing people learn when they study under a good teacher is how much they don't know they don't know. Can't learn good proven techniques from still pictures and videos. |
|
|
|
Post by Murffy on Jul 2, 2021 19:57:50 GMT
I can't argue with the value of hands-on instruction. But I don't think that truth should block intelligent, thoughtful people from discussing technique on a forum such as this. I'm not too worried about the misinformed masses. Stupid people will find ways to do stupid things. Heck, even intelligent people do stupid things from time to time (myself excepted, of course).
|
|
tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,805
|
Post by tera on Jul 2, 2021 23:15:44 GMT
I actually would love to see this sub-forum revitalized and active, too. I don't mean to dismiss the value of discussing and sharing technique. There are just two points that make it hard, IMHO.
1) If you have never had hands-on instruction, it is hard to understand instructions. For example, I'll out myself as having studied Aikido. In my opinion, the book "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" is the most complete, detailed, and clear technical manual for the art. However, when I first read it, it made NO sense. Each time I come back to it (some 30 years later no) I pick up something new and useful. That comes from an improvement of understanding through benefit of experience.
2) I have literally watched as yudansha spent 20 minutes or more debating basic grip of a sword while on the mat. There's plenty of drama out there just about how to HOLD the darn thing, even within the same Ryu. Different schools lead to even more disagreements, which can get heated.
So, in short, this sub-forum has a good mission, but a very challenging one.
|
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Jul 3, 2021 3:54:31 GMT
I actually would love to see this sub-forum revitalized and active, too. I don't mean to dismiss the value of discussing and sharing technique. There are just two points that make it hard, IMHO. 1) If you have never had hands-on instruction, it is hard to understand instructions. For example, I'll out myself as having studied Aikido. In my opinion, the book "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" is the most complete, detailed, and clear technical manual for the art. However, when I first read it, it made NO sense. Each time I come back to it (some 30 years later no) I pick up something new and useful. That comes from an improvement of understanding through benefit of experience. 2) I have literally watched as yudansha spent 20 minutes or more debating basic grip of a sword while on the mat. There's plenty of drama out there just about how to HOLD the darn thing, even within the same Ryu. Different schools lead to even more disagreements, which can get heated. So, in short, this sub-forum has a good mission, but a very challenging one. I think the way to go about it, is like a github. At first, for example, each individual technique would have a thread. If you have opinions, add-ins, or arguments about the technique, for example that doesn't work with MY sword, which is different like this:, those would be comments in the thread. If you have a submission to that thread that someone should review and use to change the headline post, then there could be a flag for that. In github, the contributors can all submit versions or arguments or votes, etc. So perhaps the subforum would be broken into subforums for each technique, with a pinned thread that is the official current version. as an example, one would describe a number 1 cut with a katana. This one should be the easiest one, since THIS cut is actually one of the cuts that you can find descriptions of with a simple google top results. Hip position could be elaborated on by users trying to feel confident they are doing it right, and discussion of blade curvature vs. specific wrist angle could be one thread, and even though it would get repetitive, specific discussion about exactly what the blade is doing to the material for the cut would be a part of every individual cut. I recall that dude from Armsnarmor using the term "percussive cut" vs. "slicing cut". |
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Jul 3, 2021 4:01:20 GMT
I can't argue with the value of hands-on instruction. But I don't think that truth should block intelligent, thoughtful people from discussing technique on a forum such as this. I'm not too worried about the misinformed masses. Stupid people will find ways to do stupid things. Heck, even intelligent people do stupid things from time to time (myself excepted, of course). My only argument about hands-on instruction is the difficulty of actually getting it. It's got to be said that being such a teacher is not an easy thing to do. You can't expect to go to a sword instructor, perhaps a hema club, and have them tell you what you needed to hear on day one. The most likely scenario is they have no idea what you need to hear, you submit to regular lessons that have nothing to do with your immediate interest, then over time you ultimately manage to find yourself having good communication sometimes, and your skills develop where you wanted them to, , but only once your skills also develop in other ways that you might not have been particularly interested in, but are unfortunately what your instructor is good at. But, while they are focused on what they are interested in, they will often have the best communication when you are also regularly focusing on these things. So although the value is indisputable, the availability is very challenging. For most people, the commitment of taking up a martial art is more than they are ready to make. They just want to zero in on a bit about blade mechanics in different positions, and don't want to necessarily master a bunch of combat skills before a master is able to properly understand what they are even talking about. I'm not suggesting the instructors are not well intended, but when it's very clear how many ways a person is moving incorrectly, it is not always easy to know what to tell them to fix one little problem, or even know what one little problem might help them, because they are just clumsy in every way. However, that individual, if they did have the right materials, would be able to interpret their interest (regardless of whether or not it results in successful cuts) , and enjoy that , without having to reach any level of mastery. (even if they continue to fail,, that day might satisfy them if they feel they understand where they can improve, for example, or what part of their experience they do feel is correct) |
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Jul 3, 2021 4:03:14 GMT
That's why you need a teacher. This ^. Anyone can eventually learn to cut on their own. Sharp things cut things. But will they do it with efficient technique and good body mechanics and form? Most probably not. The first thing people learn when they study under a good teacher is how much they don't know they don't know. Can't learn good proven techniques from still pictures and videos. that's partially true, but you can get clues that help you learn on your own, and better more accessible descriptions and demonstrations CAN (although not always do) set people up for more successful attempts. |
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 3, 2021 5:04:31 GMT
Simply not being able to find a teacher doesn't in any way negate the need for one.
|
|
tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,805
|
Post by tera on Jul 3, 2021 17:12:36 GMT
You can't expect to go to a sword instructor, perhaps a hema club, and have them tell you what you needed to hear on day one. The most likely scenario is they have no idea what you need to hear, you submit to regular lessons that have nothing to do with your immediate interest, then over time you ultimately manage to find yourself having good communication sometimes, and your skills develop where you wanted them to, but only once your skills also develop in other ways that you might not have been particularly interested in, but are unfortunately what your instructor is good at. But, while they are focused on what they are interested in, they will often have the best communication when you are also regularly focusing on these things. So although the value is indisputable, the availability is very challenging. For most people, the commitment of taking up a martial art is more than they are ready to make. They just want to zero in on a bit about blade mechanics in different positions, and don't want to necessarily master a bunch of combat skills before a master is able to properly understand what they are even talking about. I'm not suggesting the instructors are not well intended, but when it's very clear how many ways a person is moving incorrectly, it is not always easy to know what to tell them to fix one little problem, or even know what one little problem might help them, because they are just clumsy in every way. However, that individual, if they did have the right materials, would be able to interpret their interest (regardless of whether or not it results in successful cuts) , and enjoy that , without having to reach any level of mastery. (even if they continue to fail,, that day might satisfy them if they feel they understand where they can improve, for example, or what part of their experience they do feel is correct) It sounds like you have had a truly bizarre and unfortunate experience with a Sensei at some point. Maybe you ran into a McDojo situation, but in my experience good instructors teach what they teach, when they teach it, because it is either a proven formula or they are savvy enough to know how to adapt to an individual's needs. "Wax on, wax off, Daniel-san." Sometimes you may not understand something is important until you get to doing what you like, then you see that it was foundational material. An absolutely necessary pre-requisite. I don't want to over-emphasize form, but imagine walking into a karate or TKD dojo and insisting on being taught to break boards day 1. NOT a realistic or safe expectation. It may seem like a simple thing to explain, or even reason out, but there may be details that mean the difference between a broken board and a broken hand. I think of my first time skydiving. My friend, who was taught to jump by Uncle Sam, was into the hobby after his service. He told me all about it even before I took the ground school classes for my first jump. He was an expert. Let me tell you, NOBODY can put into words what it's like going out the door of an aircraft the first time. I'm glad I chose to do the tandem jump route instead of 100% ground school then solo. Having that instructor on my back helped me stabilize after exit. It may not have gone so well otherwise. |
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 3, 2021 18:22:47 GMT
Yes, well that is how sword training is done. You don't start with the sword. You start by conditioning your body with the correct strength, flexibility and coordination to properly wield the sword. I honestly don't know any other way it can possibly be done. You don't build a house from the roof down, and you don't start sword training by learning to cut.
|
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Jul 4, 2021 1:47:53 GMT
Yes, well that is how sword training is done. You don't start with the sword. You start by conditioning your body with the correct strength, flexibility and coordination to properly wield the sword. I honestly don't know any other way it can possibly be done. You don't build a house from the roof down, and you don't start sword training by learning to cut. But in history, a person would start cutting long before they started doing combat. THey would have knives, axes, etc. and cut things a lot. They would probably play with cutting the bushes like a sword, and then far down the line,, perhaps already years old, they would start to get training for combat (if they were going to train for combat, I mean), and in this case, they would actually have done exactly what you say is wrong, learn about how a sword cuts before they learn about how to battle with it. |
|
tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,805
|
Post by tera on Jul 4, 2021 2:25:31 GMT
tsmspace, that does sound reasonable and applies to how we are introduced to sharp objects even today. I do think it is a little more nuanced, though. From what I've seen, most people have a lot of "unlearning" to do when they begin studying a martial art. What they self-taught may function in some way but has vulnerabilities, safety issues, or is simply suboptimal. For example, with a japanese sword, I'm used to seeing a tight grip with the right fist, left hand a little more loose, and the thumbs on top of the tsuka. I was taught to hold the tsuka with the wrists behind the centerline and that the most important finger was, in fact, the left pinky. Other schools may teach differently. It is hard to unlearn the right-hand baseball bat grip, and perhaps better to start with an empty cup.
|
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 4, 2021 10:17:24 GMT
... From what I've seen, most people have a lot of "unlearning" to do when they begin studying a martial art. What they self-taught may function in some way but has vulnerabilities, safety issues, or is simply suboptimal. For example, with a japanese sword, I'm used to seeing a tight grip with the right fist, left hand a little more loose, and the thumbs on top of the tsuka. I was taught to hold the tsuka with the wrists behind the centerline and that the most important finger was, in fact, the left pinky. Other schools may teach differently. It is hard to unlearn the right-hand baseball bat grip, and perhaps better to start with an empty cup. ^this^ I would rather teach somebody that knows nothing at all than somebody with bad habits already in place. There is actually little commonality between knowing how to use a knife or ax and how to use a sword. The most common hold method taught is the "tiger mouth" where the spine of the tsuka is placed in the web of the hand between the thumb and first finger. The grip is rather loose, like holding a raw egg. You have to hold it tight enough to not drop it, but loose enough so that you don't break it. Handling the Katana is a surprisingly gentle activity. |
|
|
|
Post by Murffy on Jul 5, 2021 1:54:51 GMT
... From what I've seen, most people have a lot of "unlearning" to do when they begin studying a martial art. What they self-taught may function in some way but has vulnerabilities, safety issues, or is simply suboptimal. For example, with a japanese sword, I'm used to seeing a tight grip with the right fist, left hand a little more loose, and the thumbs on top of the tsuka. I was taught to hold the tsuka with the wrists behind the centerline and that the most important finger was, in fact, the left pinky. Other schools may teach differently. It is hard to unlearn the right-hand baseball bat grip, and perhaps better to start with an empty cup. ^this^ I would rather teach somebody that knows nothing at all than somebody with bad habits already in place. There is actually little commonality between knowing how to use a knife or ax and how to use a sword. The most common hold method taught is the "tiger mouth" where the spine of the tsuka is placed in the web of the hand between the thumb and first finger. The grip is rather loose, like holding a raw egg. You have to hold it tight enough to not drop it, but loose enough so that you don't break it. Handling the Katana is a surprisingly gentle activity. Good info on the grip. Reminds me when golfing, I've occasionally told people the proper grip. It's kind of non-intuitive. Most beginners tend to hold their thumb on the shaft with their right hand and grip it in their palm. Much better if you keep the right thumb off the shaft and let it lie relaxed against your index finger while the shaft should settle in the fingers and not the palm. It feels weird when you first try it but doesn't take too long before it feels natural. Back to swords, I blew the dust off my copy of "The Fighting Sword" by Dwight McLemore. He describes the "katana grip" much like you guys do. He also describes the "Korean" style hammer grip which he seems to prefer. |
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 5, 2021 3:50:29 GMT
I just posted a video on katana basics on the technique thread. Maybe that will help clarify things. Sometimes a picture or a video really is worth a thousand words.
Even though I spent several hours with Markus 313, that is still only scratching the surface of what there is to know about katana.
|
|
|
|
Post by tsmspace on Jul 5, 2021 9:51:46 GMT
here's from yesterday, I cut with an arming sword. My visual posture is not really what I can be the judge of, however the sword is not generally that easy to cut bottles with,, it's a 2nds quality, doesn't really work out to get that sharp, and dulls quickly. So, anyway, these are very successful cuts overall.
|
|
|
|
Post by Murffy on Jul 5, 2021 20:43:14 GMT
I just posted a video on katana basics on the technique thread. Maybe that will help clarify things. Sometimes a picture or a video really is worth a thousand words. Even though I spent several hours with Markus 313, that is still only scratching the surface of what there is to know about katana. I appreciate the video. I watched it with interest. |
|
