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Post by durinnmcfurren on May 30, 2021 5:11:04 GMT
As I mentioned in another thread, I am not convinced by Roland Warzecha's interpretation of how to grip a viking-era sword. I thought perhaps I'd mention my thoughts here and see if anyone wants to weigh in.
First off, Roland is far more qualified than I am. You should probably ignore me entirely and just listen to him. However, I have to say I am just not convinced by his method.
His method for gripping involves an almost saber-style grip with the heel of the palm going over the hilt. My preferred method is more like gripping an Indian Tulwar with a hammer grip. (On the Tulwar, the disc-shape of the pommel prevents Roland's style of grip).
My reasoning:
1. If the heel of the palm is supposed to go over the hilt like that, they would likely have optimized hilts for this purpose and not gone with literally 27+ different hilt designs.
2. Viking swords feel like they should be choppers and cutters. We know the vikings admired strong sword blows, and would break shields in combat with their blows (witness, for example, the holmgang rules that each fighter could have two extra shields). Roland's grip, to me, feels like it isn't as good for strong blows, even though it gives extra reach. Of course, maybe I am just doing Roland's grip totally wrong! I am the first to admit I suck at using a sword.
3. Reach isn't nearly so important when fighting with a sword and shield, as with a sword alone. And even if you want to stab, the Romans stabbed very effectively from a hammer grip (I _think_ anyway - need to check sources for more info on this!) with scutum and gladius. The vikings could do the same.
4. Roland has lots of experiences in recreating viking martial arts; I do not. But this might actually lead a person astray, because in HEMA (and other martial arts training) we never hit to injure. Thus, the goal is more to tag the opponent than to get a solid blow in that would break mail or shields. If you're trying to just tag someone, sure, the extra reach that Roland's method gives is great! But I'm not convinced it would work better for powerful blows.
Anyway, feel free to tear apart my ideas, or tell me why I should be ashamed to question someone with so much more experience than I have. Perhaps I will learn something about the use of viking swords! Although one final point: I doubt the viking-era warriors all fought with the same grips and techniques. It's not like they all had one formal manual of arms or anything...
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 30, 2021 5:41:23 GMT
Here's a thread from MyArmoury about this topic: myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2478I believe (!) that both (or more) grips were used. Some swords feel like dead weight in a hammer grip and become lively in handshake/pommel grip. Some viking pommels seem to be made to slide in the palm, some not. |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 6:49:34 GMT
I've tried both grips on my leaf bladed sword. It's a heavy sword so it was a good way to test if the grips felt secure.
I definitely prefer the hammer grip for it, as it feels like it wouldn't be hard to knock it out. But if you see how knives are used in real life and how hard it is to disarm a tight hammer grip on a knife (don't be fooled by demonstrations), it's easy to believe this would be the way they were used.
In any use of any tool, you see variance in different people using it different ways. So there's that
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Post by perignum on May 30, 2021 7:37:16 GMT
I think the shield here is the key. Like a Scottish 18th Century basket, Viking swords were part of a 'weapons system' of sword and shield. I was planning writing something on Brian Boru and the Battle of Clontarf so for research I've handled a couple of viking swords in private collections. They all have a PoB of 6-7 inches and weigh between 1.4 and 1.7 kg.
For all the talk of 'throwing' a cut and letting the blade do the work, they handle like wood axes and are very tiring on the arm to hold in a handshake grip. Even in a hammer grip they are impossible to 'fence' with because of their weight and mass.
I think a shield might allow for a greater range of grips and cuts to be used because you can lash out one or two heavy blows, then duck behind your great big metre-wide slab of shield for a rest. I agree with thrusting in a hammer grip, too. I've a feeling stabbing with a viking sword was done somewhat similarly to broadsword and targe treatises, where you try to lever the opposition guard up and drive a low thrust under their arm.
Edit: I will say, with absolute and utter certainty, that if you got hit with a viking sword in any sort of grip you'd feckin' stay hit. A full-on chop with a viking sword I'm sure would break bones through mail and take off unarmoured limbs easy peasy. So only one of those immensely powerful blows needs to connect to end a duel or incapacitate your immediate opponent on the battlefield.
Could you imagine the carnage these guys wreaked on civilian monastic settlements around the coasts of Europe? Anyone not wearing a helmet and mail would be spectacularly and very bloodily despatched with only one or two swings.
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Post by William Swiger on May 30, 2021 10:12:11 GMT
This has been discussed many times over. Some feel the Viking swords (others used this type as well) were primarily gripped in a hammer grip but could be used with a handshake grip on occasion. Some are only one or the other. I tend to think from all the ones I have owned is the hammer grip is more natural for the sword but could be used with a modified grip if needed.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on May 30, 2021 14:46:51 GMT
Well, I'm pleased to see a lot of people agree with me!
Just to reemphasize Perignum's point, yeah, I am by no means super strong but I'm also not all that weak. And I find a handshake grip on a viking sword 1. not very secure (feels like it would be easy to get it knocked out of my hand) and 2. Rather tiring and harder to control the blade). Also, I'm deeply jealous that you got to handle some real archaelogical finds.
EDIT: Also, I see on the MyArmoury thread people saying the hammer grip won't give as good a cut. I don't know, the Indian swords were famed for cutting power, and unless I am very much mistaken, they would HAVE to be held in a hammer grip. So I think you could cut or chop perfectly adequately with 'axe-style' chops and with draw cuts.
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Post by perignum on May 30, 2021 15:37:00 GMT
Well, I'm pleased to see a lot of people agree with me!
Just to reemphasize Perignum's point, yeah, I am by no means super strong but I'm also not all that weak. And I find a handshake grip on a viking sword 1. not very secure (feels like it would be easy to get it knocked out of my hand) and 2. Rather tiring and harder to control the blade). Also, I'm deeply jealous that you got to handle some real archaelogical finds.
EDIT: Also, I see on the MyArmoury thread people saying the hammer grip won't give as good a cut. I don't know, the Indian swords were famed for cutting power, and unless I am very much mistaken, they would HAVE to be held in a hammer grip. So I think you could cut or chop perfectly adequately with 'axe-style' chops and with draw cuts.
After Covid travel restrictions ease up I'd advise you to visit the National Archaeology Museum in Dublin. There are some fantastic Viking displays there as well as a permanent feature dealing with the Battle of Clontarf. Pints of Guinness are also to be had aplenty and it just so happens that a lot of the best pubs are situated around the old Viking part of town.  |
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Post by durinnmcfurren on May 30, 2021 18:25:08 GMT
I visited Dublin back in early 2018 but did not get to the National Archaeology Museum. My wife and I were more focused on the pre-Celtic stuff and medieval castles. I'll have to hit it next time!
I'd really like to get to the Museum Het Volkof in the Netherlands, where their sword K.22 is on display. I've been in correspondence with the curator there about the details of that sword. It's BEEFY (1.8 kg) with a huge hilt and crossguard.
PS Here's a tip if you are interested in seeing a pre-Celtic burial site. Cairn T in Loughcrew (Boyne Valley) can only be visited with a tour during the summer. BUT, if you go in the winter like we did, you can just get the key to the gate from a nearby shop for a 50 euro deposit! And you can walk up there and go inside by yourself. Definitely one of the main highlights of the trip for me, although we got lost on the way up to the Cairn and possibly walked through some farmer's field.
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Post by markus313 on May 30, 2021 18:46:27 GMT
What I think how a „viking“ sword should be held...
I don’t think Warzecha’s method is practical for full contact at all. They never seem to go full contact anyways.
The method shown below aligns the edge with the second knuckle of the forefinger. The fingers never open. The pommel sits snug against the palm/wrist junction and can slide somewhat along that area, when the blade is extended for the cut. It rests comfortably inside the pinky finger. This grip gives good blade alignment and control. You see how much space is left for my glove size 10 hands on this repro. Attachments:
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Post by durinnmcfurren on May 30, 2021 20:38:43 GMT
I don’t think Warzecha’s method is practical for full contact at all. They never seem to go full contact anyways.
And that, I think, is why people can be led astray by sparring sometimes. In sparring the goal is to tag, not to really hit. It reminds me of the issue in modern fencing where people are often trained to not worry about defending themselves as long as they can get their tag in just a moment before their opponent. In real life, this would stand a rather good chance of you being killed along with your opponent.
Anyway, yeah, if you use a hammer grip with your palm snugged down to the hilt, the hilt won't poke into you at all, no matter how you twist your wrist around. Even if you grip it close to the guard, it won't be a problem in my experience. My second knuckle does indeed want to sit basically pointing along the edge of the blade. And this makes the sword very secure in my hand so that if I smash into a shield or a mail-covered opponent, the sword isn't going anywhere.
The only downside: slightly less reach. But I really don't think that is a big issue when you're using it as part of a sword/shield system.
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Post by neuronic on May 30, 2021 20:44:43 GMT
When I grip close to the guard in a hammer grip, there's no way the pommel will not hit my wrist on a strike. So I grip with the heel of my palm at the flat of the pommel... pretty much like in Markus' picture.
That's my handling experience.
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Post by perignum on May 30, 2021 21:59:50 GMT
And this is why, around the year 1k,some swordsmith said, 'You know what, guys? I'm going to just stick a wheel on the bottom of this thing and you can all discuss something else.'
To which some great bear of a guy down the back of the tavern goes, 'As long as you don't make the blade any narrower, I'm okay with it. A good cutting blade is the best thing you can bring to battle. I'm not having any truck with pointy swords. Nobody likes change.....'
And so the first sword forum was born.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on May 30, 2021 23:44:36 GMT
Personally, I find having the heel of my palm press against the hilt enhances my control of the sword, especially in recovering from misses.
Anyway, yes, the (European) swordsmiths finally solved the problem by making longer hilts with wheels on them.
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Post by kjakker on May 31, 2021 14:20:43 GMT
I thought I would add these videos.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 31, 2021 20:55:47 GMT
When I grip close to the guard in a hammer grip, there's no way the pommel will not hit my wrist on a strike. So I grip with the heel of my palm at the flat of the pommel... pretty much like in Markus' picture. This is why the grip should be the same length as your palm width, so that when you hold it with your hand against the guard, your hand is also against the pommel. Average Viking sword grip length is about 9cm. Average adult male hand palm width is about 9cm. Not a coincidence. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 0:12:32 GMT
When I grip close to the guard in a hammer grip, there's no way the pommel will not hit my wrist on a strike. So I grip with the heel of my palm at the flat of the pommel... pretty much like in Markus' picture. This is why the grip should be the same length as your palm width, so that when you hold it with your hand against the guard, your hand is also against the pommel. Average Viking sword grip length is about 9cm. Average adult male hand palm width is about 9cm. Not a coincidence. Or you can do what I accidentally did and make the grip way too long, but it's so long the pommel is out of the way when you choke up on the guard anyway  And if you choke down, you got a bit more length That's what she said |
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Post by markus313 on Jun 4, 2021 19:40:14 GMT
For me, with wheel pommels it's just more or less the same. That HT EMSHS pommel is particularly comfortable, by the way, and enforces excellent edge (and point) alignment and control in general. Also it keeps your fingers a great deal away from the crossguard, which can benefit their health. Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 19:50:02 GMT
For me, with wheel pommels it's just more or less the same. That HT EMSHS pommel is particularly comfortable, by the way, and enforces excellent edge (and point) alignment and control in general. Also it keeps your fingers a great deal away from the crossguard, which can benefit their health. This grip shows up in the tapestries too, so there is evidence it was done this way |
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Post by markus313 on Jun 4, 2021 19:51:16 GMT
For me, with wheel pommels it's just more or less the same. That HT EMSHS pommel is particularly comfortable, by the way, and enforces excellent edge (and point) alignment and control in general. Also it keeps your fingers a great deal away from the crossguard, which can benefit their health. This grip shows up in the tapestries too, so there is evidence it was done this way Cool, I'll have to look that up. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 20:11:29 GMT
This grip shows up in the tapestries too, so there is evidence it was done this way Cool, I'll have to look that up. There was a Matt Easton video on it I can't find. I bring him up cause he had a nice collection of photos lol |
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