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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 18:35:51 GMT
Reference?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 18:40:12 GMT
My local library cannot get me a copy of AVB Norman's book at the moment because someone else has it and keeps checking it out. Eventually, I'll be able to refer to it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 18:43:20 GMT
Apr 19, 2019 15:07:52 GMT -4 AndiTheBarvarian said: The CS Cavalier and the (Swept Hilt - Edit: I meant the Ribbed Shell, sorry) are different weapons for different fighting styles. Trying to visualize it: Archie in Rob Roy = transitional rapier or degen (in German) Alatriste or Lester's Musketeer movies = classic rapier.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 15, 2021 11:38:59 GMT
A Degen can have different hilt types, usually 17th cent. and later complex hilts. It's rather a thing of the blade type, usually thrust orientated cut and thrust blades shorter than a classic rapier. Subtypes like Haudegen, Offiziersdegen etc. can have blades from backsword to smallsword types. Transitional rapier is a modern term for a sword with smaller blades and hilts than the classic rapiers. In German such swords are called Degen. Pappenheimer is a certain hilt type and doesn't say much about the blade type (ok, some kind of Degen blade). No one knows how it got the name "Pappenheimer" because there are no records about Graf v. Pappenheim or his men using such - otherwise very common - swords/hilts in the 30 year war. So the rose of lippe épée can be called a transitional rapier with a Pappenheimer hilt or a Pappenheimer sword. de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degende.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Blankwaffenfachbegriffewww.seitengewehr.de/Fachwoerter_der_Blankwaffenkunde.pdfwww.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm#.YE9TpKy1KyV
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 17:25:19 GMT
Ok, so I take back everything I said about this sword.
I am so out of my depth here. All I can conclude is that it's well made and feels nice in the hand. The shipping was fast, and I can update that the vendor apologized for sending the wrong grip-wrap and offered to fix the problem if I wanted a fix.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 17:50:00 GMT
A Degen can have different hilt types, usually 17th cent. and later complex hilts. It's rather a thing of the blade type, usually thrust orientated cut and thrust blades shorter than a classic rapier. Subtypes like Haudegen, Offiziersdegen etc. can have blades from backsword to smallsword types. Transitional rapier is a modern term for a sword with smaller blades and hilts than the classic rapiers. In German such swords are called Degen. Pappenheimer is a certain hilt type and doesn't say much about the blade type (ok, some kind of Degen blade). No one knows how it got the name "Pappenheimer" because there are no records about Graf v. Pappenheim or his men using such - otherwise very common - swords/hilts in the 30 year war. So the rose of lippe épée can be called a transitional rapier with a Pappenheimer hilt or a Pappenheimer sword. de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degende.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Blankwaffenfachbegriffewww.seitengewehr.de/Fachwoerter_der_Blankwaffenkunde.pdfwww.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm#.YE9TpKy1KyVRight. For the purpose of the thread, the word degen regards little of the above in the English language. I read some bit further yesterday on the word degen in etymology but chose not to detract from the thread, as the word has little bearing in most modern English spaeking sword collecting circles. Why don't we just go back to the descriptive of epee, or sword. I did not belabor the fact that we might as well hove called it the Sword Rose of Lippe, or the Degen Rose of Lippe, nor the Rapier Rapier of Lippe and heavens forbid the Pappenheimer Rose of Lippe. "The classic German "Degen" is what the English call a transitional rapier, a bit shorter and lighter than a classic rapier. It's a general term for many subtypes of swords (Stoßdegen, Haudegen, Militärdegen etc.) but if you just say Degen it means a transitional rapier." That is an English reference I don't see as common and what I figured you might find time to in supporting the statement. I don't see it. I am not sure where you are getting a transitional transitional from but I find that your classification is a bit contentious. Norman starts by just giving the hilt type a number, right next to your "shelled" classification you edited out two hours after you posted your previous treatise. You are using the word transitional to suit your new understanding and narrative as you go. "So the rose of lippe épée can be called a transitional rapier with a Pappenheimer hilt or a Pappenheimer sword." Uh huh. Tell us all about Lippe now. Or the rose Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 17:52:17 GMT
I'm so confused now. Honestly, I am just going to call it a sword. It's a nice sword.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 18:00:12 GMT
I found the most definitive descriptive of the word degen while reading yesterday, as both a trade and surname. Kind of like Cooper, or Smith. Or Shotley. So, I guess we can digress a bit and cook some popcorn. www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2696715.pdfWe can call it a Spadenheimer, or Pappenheimroon to suit your words. l) Cheers GC
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Post by pgandy on Mar 15, 2021 18:02:18 GMT
@lebleuchevalier If you like your new sword is all that counts. Don’t let others spoil it for you. Enjoy.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 15, 2021 18:48:26 GMT
I'm so confused now. Honestly, I am just going to call it a sword. It's a nice sword. I just wanted to say that you were right with your idea of late period shorter rapiers. They are called Degen in Germany and there is no exact translation for this in English except "épée" which is French and usually means a sport fencing blade (guess how it's s named in German). You can switch the language on outfit4events.com to German and read again the name of this sword.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 19:17:38 GMT
I'm so confused now. Honestly, I am just going to call it a sword. It's a nice sword. I just wanted to say that you were right with your idea of late period shorter rapiers. They are called Degen in Germany and there is no exact translation for this in English except "épée" which is French and usually means a sport fencing blade (guess how it's s named in German). You can switch the language on outfit4events.com to German and read again the name of this sword. I appreciate your explanation. Where I am getting confused here is how to classify this sword. Classifying rapiers by hilt type seems appropriate. This is definitely what we in the 21st century would refer to as a Pappenheimer hilt type. Classifying by blade type is where it gets tricky. This blade is quite narrow, tapers to a fine point, and doesn't seem at all conducive to any kinds of cuts. It feels like a thrusting-centric blade, and given it's shorter length, your explanation of it being a transitional rapier blade seems appropriate, but that assumes that the maker intended it to be so. I think edelweiss made a good point that the blade may be shorter than usual for the purpose of shipping.
I can also confirm the sword is peened, and the peen is so well done I cannot even see it. So this blade isn't coming off.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 19:37:19 GMT
All rapiers are transitional. Pick a context, any context. The swept hilt rapers, on which this evolves from, was an Elizabethan period "transition" One could say that adding the plates make them transitional, while the blade length has nothing to do with it.
Look, one of the folk here uses a quote of my words in his signature, another adopts a phrase of mine as his state of mind.
Your moderator has pretty much nailed the SBG philosophy, as long as you are happy with it. I simply pointed it out as a pappenheimer with a short blade.
I most enjoyed Andi's old description of a degen, or transitional rapier.
"Apr 19, 2019 15:07:52 GMT -4 AndiTheBarvarian said: The CS Cavalier and the (Swept Hilt - Edit: I meant the Ribbed Shell, sorry) are different weapons for different fighting styles. Trying to visualize it: Archie in Rob Roy = transitional rapier or degen (in German) Alatriste or Lester's Musketeer movies = classic rapier."
Be SBG, live SBG because having fun is more important than any accuracy. Especially so in a section that might want to follow accepted categorizations. The heck with that, let's just call stuff what we want to.
Cheers GC
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 15, 2021 20:26:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 21:55:39 GMT
Which has little in common with early 17th century rapiers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2021 1:15:51 GMT
Which has little in common with early 17th century rapiers. That like saying a Model T has little in common with a Prius.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 16, 2021 3:24:51 GMT
Yeah, it's rather simular to a crossbow!
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