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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 17, 2008 21:27:16 GMT
Part of what we did during Bill Tsafa's and Adam Sharp's visit here was test various assumptions about what certain techniques would or would not do. We wanted to find out as much as possible about what really works, and try to settle some old arguments and disagreements. To that end, one of the things we did was to test SCA-style fighting strikes on single rolled tatami mats to determine the effectiveness of these strikes in actual cutting. The video is shot at an angle that doesn't show it. But the tatami rolls are placed about 10-12 inches away from the outside edge of the tire pell. The strikes that make clean cuts strike the tires after going through the tatami. A variety of swords were used. These were a Darksword Armory Medieval Knight, a Windlass-made Museum Replicas Ltd "Ulfberht", an old Angus Trim DD1404, a new Angus Trim AT1315, and a new Albion Next Generation Knight. Here is a video of Tsafa cutting with three SCA-style strikes. These are the "on-side" strike, the "off-side" strike, and the one that has generated the most debate... the "wrap shot". I was skeptical about these in actual cutting. But I am now a believer. Tsafa was previously a proponent of only inexpensive swords, especially for combat. I will let him comment in detail, but I believe he's come to a different perception now... I hope folks enjoy our efforts at clearing up some disagreements, at least to some degree.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2008 21:38:03 GMT
That is outstanding testing. Did you guys get a reseach grant? ;D Its very cool to see a demonstration of the effects of different blade profiles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2008 23:53:39 GMT
Thank you for the videos and the demonstration. As and SCA fighter you have confirmed what I've always believed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 2:32:29 GMT
I went ahead and move this into the WMA section, as I find it fits rather perfectly into the 'WMA' category specifically, rather than just 'general' training.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:00:39 GMT
Now that is about as controlled as you can get . Beautiful job! Really, this was a valuable contribution to the community. I am convinced that I will be saying this over and over now, thanks again. Debbie
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 18, 2008 3:33:18 GMT
The 1315 and Knight really did the job. The Ulfberht wasn't bad, either. The DSA appeared more to just bash things but even that might hurt a little. Slightly disappointed with the 1404, though. Nicely done, gents. And yes, how 'bout those high-end swords? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 6:16:10 GMT
The 1404 had a handle shape that Bill wasn't used to, and he rolled his edge when cutting into the mats. It normally cuts mats very well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 6:28:32 GMT
Thanks for posting this guys, very cool to see some tests!
Was the demo of the SCA strikes meant to indicate the amount of force used in such techniques or was it a technical demonstration only?
I ask only because it seems from the video that the cutting strikes were done with quite a bit more force and less ability to recover and strike again. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 6:41:07 GMT
I was actually just noticing that myself on the off-side shots he torques his body into it a lot more. Really, this was just a demo showing that SCA strikes can indeed cut pretty well. You'll have to talk to Tsafa to get any more specifics.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 18:59:56 GMT
Great video, that first time I have ever seen anyone cutting mats with a shield. I'll bet if Tsafa dropped the shield he'd cut right through the mat. The shots are not as devastating as those you'd see from a longsword, but I can see how they would sting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 19:09:45 GMT
Yup, sting your arm right off in some cases.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 5:01:53 GMT
Bad bill, thats a bad example of an offside. Your leaning your head over your shield just ASKING for it to get chopped off there . I am surprised how well the wrap with the albion knight was cutting...but the other was pretty much what our test came up with. Does not cut enough to warrant much of a threat through armor unless you through more of your body and power into then really is wise in an attack. Also the wraps didn't go deep enough with the actual swords to really bypass full sized shield. Maybe the smaller ones favored here in the west...but since we punch block, a wrap or not, it's kind of a moot point. Unarmored though...yeah...thats another story alltogether .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 7:37:46 GMT
The only sword that didn't really cut at all was the Darksword Armory one. All the others put at the *minimum* several inch deep cuts into the mat. The Atrim 1315 and the Albion Knight did well enough to amount to a cut that would basically sever a neck pretty well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 9:19:37 GMT
I'm almost exclusively a JSA practitioner and know very little about the WMA, but I have become quite interested in it This might be a stupid question, but what does SCA stand for?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 16:40:23 GMT
Society for Creative Anachronism.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 17:14:49 GMT
Awesome video, thanks for taking the time, and spending the cash to cut some tatami and post it for us to see... Boy! those last two swords are mean cutters apparently!
Question: I've never done that kind of cutting before, or any cutting with a European sword period. It looks like it can be very hard of the wrists?.... Is this correct? I'm just curious seeing that i have some joint problems but would like to try this in the future.
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Post by rammstein on Aug 19, 2008 18:07:53 GMT
Hey Jim.
The verdict is still out on whether this is historical, keep that in mind. We now know that it does sem to work.
I think that it would be hard on the wrists if done a lot, but I think that it can't be too stressful if used as a light "seasoning" in your striking arsenal. Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 18:08:57 GMT
You must take note that those cuts are exclusive to the SCA and not necessarily representative of WMA in general.
Not bashing at all - just sayin' you won't see cuts like that elsewhere.
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Post by alvin on Aug 19, 2008 18:51:51 GMT
Thanks again guys for the effort required to provide the Forum with this info. Again, I'm no WMA practitioner, just a reader with solo attempts at the practice of forms. Other than sport fencing, the way of the sword appears to be very lacking here in Guatemala. I could readily find advice on the use of the machete though. So, forgive my obvious ignorance. I've seen mentioned the terms historical and SCA strikes. Am I correct in believing that by historical it is meant those strikes, movements found in historical literature, and that the SCA strikes are blows developed and allowed within the SCA organization? From reading the various discussions, sometimes pretty heated ones, here and on other forums, I have come to the conclusion that the answer is yes. On the SCA strikes, my observation from the video was, that while they may not appear in historical manuals, they would definitely come into play in an actual free-for-all combat, along with a lot of other, maybe strange moves. After all, combat would not be as what one will find in the sala - one would make their shots where one would find them. But I did notice, I believe, that the wrap strike seemed to be a pretty weak move. Although, if the circumstances in a real fight provided the opportunity to use it, I'm sure it would certainly do the job - at least provide for a follow up shot. Sorry to ramble. I guess my post is to clarify the distinction between historical and SCA strikes. The rest of the ramble is just more of my inexperienced observations with an invite from you guys in the know to comment if you wish to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 19:02:18 GMT
SCA strikes were developed by early SCA members who had all sorts of different backgrounds. The only manual we have from around the time that the SCA is attempting to recreate is the I.33 manual, which is bucker and sword. If you see SCA buckler and sword fighting it resembles this closely(in some cases). With large shields like you see Tsafa using, we have no written sources on, so it's anyone's guess whether or not they existed historically in a codified fighting system.
Be that as it may 'Historical' use of swords is limited to what we actually have sources for.
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