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Post by RufusScorpius on Oct 22, 2020 11:36:42 GMT
This is how you incorporate diversity without destroying the illusion of the fantasy world or disrupting the storylines. What can I say? I like girls with purple synthetic hair and space chain-mail.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 12:33:17 GMT
The show features a hunky beefcake guy with a voice that sounds like he has a two pack a day habit,and he slays fantastical monsters while wearing leather fetish armor, but we get tripped up by a girl with an afro or a girl whose complexion is two shades darker than what's described in the book? The Witcher (tv show) seems so low brow that it borders on parody. I guess I fall into the camp that just doesn't think it matters that much. I acknowledge there may be mitigating circumstances once in a while, but I'm struggling to comprehend what those circumstances are here.
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Post by Dandelion on Oct 22, 2020 12:43:12 GMT
This is how you incorporate diversity without destroying the illusion of the fantasy world or disrupting the storylines. What can I say? I like girls with purple synthetic hair and space chain-mail.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Oct 22, 2020 12:49:45 GMT
The show features a hunky beefcake guy with a voice that sounds like he has a two pack a day habit,and he slays fantastical monsters while wearing leather fetish armor, but we get tripped up by a girl with an afro or a girl whose complexion is two shades darker than what's described in the book? The Witcher (tv show) seems so low brow that it borders on parody. I guess I fall into the camp that just doesn't think it matters that much. I acknowledge there may be mitigating circumstances once in a while, but I'm struggling to comprehend what those circumstances are here. I agree. No fetish or low-brow allowed. You'll never catch me watching things that take cheap shots that blatantly sexualizes what would otherwise be an engrossing and complex storyline and dynamic character arcs.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 22, 2020 13:07:52 GMT
I loved the UFO show as a kid, and still love it. Much goodness there. As to the Witcher, I really can't complain, the characters are recognizable, and no book to movie adaptation is exact. That's just not possible, since when we READ something, and picture it in our minds, it will never be right if someone else puts it on screen.
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Post by Cos on Oct 22, 2020 22:55:31 GMT
The show features a hunky beefcake guy with a voice that sounds like he has a two pack a day habit,and he slays fantastical monsters while wearing leather fetish armor, but we get tripped up by a girl with an afro or a girl whose complexion is two shades darker than what's described in the book? The Witcher (tv show) seems so low brow that it borders on parody. I guess I fall into the camp that just doesn't think it matters that much. I acknowledge there may be mitigating circumstances once in a while, but I'm struggling to comprehend what those circumstances are here. Eh...Imo this is kind of disrespectful and dismissive. At least, I can envision it appearing that way to someone who is a Diehard fan who believes these things matter and are an important part of the whole witcher experience. I don't think physical descriptions and characteristics that are repeatedly mentioned are unimportant (And can just be altered to whatever). Rather, I think they are distinguishing in ways that make the original characters important and unique to the original story. Not trying to draw implications as I don't know 100% what you would say in this hypothetical situation but what would you think of Marvel rehashing BLADE and for example he was now a blue-eyed, blonde, pony-tail sporting white dude with a handlebar moustache. Something tells me you and others would not as easily brush aside the change. But I could be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I really don't think that's an argument to be made, especially with the specific example of Blade. Besides the fact that the main character is closely modeled after the source material, that's apples and oranges. You're making (intentionally or accidentally) a racist argument. Does it need to be said there has been for a long time a massive disparity of leading roles for POC in film and again, this show is about monsters and wizards. If you are so offended by a casting choice because of the actors skin color then maybe it's not the show for you.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 23:00:02 GMT
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Post by Cos on Oct 22, 2020 23:50:07 GMT
I really don't think that's an argument to be made, especially with the specific example of Blade. Besides the fact that the main character is closely modeled after the source material, that's apples and oranges. You're making (intentionally or accidentally) a racist argument. Does it need to be said there has been for a long time a massive disparity of leading roles for POC in film and again, this show is about monsters and wizards. If you are so offended by a casting choice because of the actors skin color then maybe it's not the show for you. I'm making a racist argument? Please elaborate. "Does it need to be said there has been for a long time a massive disparity of leading roles for POC in film and again" And therefore what exactly? Original characters should be changed and altered from source material on purpose? What exactly is the implication with that statement here? Did you read my post in it's entirety with a true understanding of what I was saying before you posted this? I believe that you should temper your accusatory responses before you try throwing what little weight you have around with me. Your talking points are racist talking points. That's what I said. I didn't accuse you of racism, nor did I call you a racist. Take the bass out of your voice and maybe consider the points I made. If this jumped out at you as a personal attack then I'm sorry as it was not meant that way, but I can't do anything about the way you feel. You wondered about how people would feel if Blade was recast in an Aryan perfect image, you are a grown up and should know this was an obvious dog whistle. PoC are getting chances now to be Knights and Princesses and wizards on the big screen. This is a good thing. I can't image any serious reason anyone would be upset by this. As to the small gripe of source material, Netflix bought the rights. It is theirs to do with as they see fit, as well as the blessing of the author. If its good enough for him then why do you need to keep rattling on about it? I'm not trying to pick a fight but your major problem seems to be the actors skin color and it comes off as insensitive.
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 24, 2020 7:15:37 GMT
I'm making a racist argument? Please elaborate. "Does it need to be said there has been for a long time a massive disparity of leading roles for POC in film and again" And therefore what exactly? Original characters should be changed and altered from source material on purpose? What exactly is the implication with that statement here? Did you read my post in it's entirety with a true understanding of what I was saying before you posted this? I believe that you should temper your accusatory responses before you try throwing what little weight you have around with me. Your talking points are racist talking points. That's what I said. I didn't accuse you of racism, nor did I call you a racist. Take the bass out of your voice and maybe consider the points I made. If this jumped out at you as a personal attack then I'm sorry as it was not meant that way, but I can't do anything about the way you feel. You wondered about how people would feel if Blade was recast in an Aryan perfect image, you are a grown up and should know this was an obvious dog whistle. PoC are getting chances now to be Knights and Princesses and wizards on the big screen. This is a good thing. I can't image any serious reason anyone would be upset by this. As to the small gripe of source material, Netflix bought the rights. It is theirs to do with as they see fit, as well as the blessing of the author. If its good enough for him then why do you need to keep rattling on about it? I'm not trying to pick a fight but your major problem seems to be the actors skin color and it comes off as insensitive. I disagree with a few points here. Regarding the casting, the core trio (Geralt, Yen & Ciri) are all very good/great. Triss' casting? No more off than her 'game casting' (Triss was NEVER a red haired 'go-get'em' heroine...she was a morally conflicted individual and a bit of an opportunist...I mean, fans of the books know she and Geralt...), so that one didn't bother me. Fringilla was a mess of casting and didn't match the character at all. A person with dark hair and 'skin as white as snow' should not be portrayed by the exact physical opposite, especially when that physical characteristic plays a role in that character's story and relationship with the main character. Hence, bad casting in terms of staying true to the source material.
Regarding the statement that "people of color are getting chances now to be knights and princess and wizards on the big screen"...so your point, in pointing out racial arguments, is to say that having certain ethnicities appropriate roles within a certain ethnic culture they historically had marginal participation in is inclusive? I counter and say that Egypt and India alone, let alone the cultures and histories existing within the boundaries of contemporary Libya, Algeria, Angola, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, etc. have FAR more to offer contemporary cinema and literature than does retreading the "knights" and "damsels" and "court intrigue" motif for the umpteenth time. I'd much rather focus on diversity in such a way that pays homage to the rich multicultural world we live in...not continuously tossing misplaced efforts of inclusion in environments that are historically dubious. For truth, Indian culture and history alone could give the world a serious fantasy masterpiece if certain creative liberties were taken with intertwining ancient history and how the Deva influence the course of events...historical high fantasy of such an effort could be an absolute treat. Or maybe I'm far too interested in seeing a fantastical depiction of Durga in battle.
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Post by Cos on Oct 24, 2020 11:47:29 GMT
Your talking points are racist talking points. That's what I said. I didn't accuse you of racism, nor did I call you a racist. Take the bass out of your voice and maybe consider the points I made. If this jumped out at you as a personal attack then I'm sorry as it was not meant that way, but I can't do anything about the way you feel. You wondered about how people would feel if Blade was recast in an Aryan perfect image, you are a grown up and should know this was an obvious dog whistle. PoC are getting chances now to be Knights and Princesses and wizards on the big screen. This is a good thing. I can't image any serious reason anyone would be upset by this. As to the small gripe of source material, Netflix bought the rights. It is theirs to do with as they see fit, as well as the blessing of the author. If its good enough for him then why do you need to keep rattling on about it? I'm not trying to pick a fight but your major problem seems to be the actors skin color and it comes off as insensitive. I disagree with a few points here. Regarding the casting, the core trio (Geralt, Yen & Ciri) are all very good/great. Triss' casting? No more off than her 'game casting' (Triss was NEVER a red haired 'go-get'em' heroine...she was a morally conflicted individual and a bit of an opportunist...I mean, fans of the books know she and Geralt...), so that one didn't bother me. Fringilla was a mess of casting and didn't match the character at all. A person with dark hair and 'skin as white as snow' should not be portrayed by the exact physical opposite, especially when that physical characteristic plays a role in that character's story and relationship with the main character. Hence, bad casting in terms of staying true to the source material.
Regarding the statement that "people of color are getting chances now to be knights and princess and wizards on the big screen"...so your point, in pointing out racial arguments, is to say that having certain ethnicities appropriate roles within a certain ethnic culture they historically had marginal participation in is inclusive? I counter and say that Egypt and India alone, let alone the cultures and histories existing within the boundaries of contemporary Libya, Algeria, Angola, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, etc. have FAR more to offer contemporary cinema and literature than does retreading the "knights" and "damsels" and "court intrigue" motif for the umpteenth time. I'd much rather focus on diversity in such a way that pays homage to the rich multicultural world we live in...not continuously tossing misplaced efforts of inclusion in environments that are historically dubious. For truth, Indian culture and history alone could give the world a serious fantasy masterpiece if certain creative liberties were taken with intertwining ancient history and how the Deva influence the course of events...historical high fantasy of such an effort could be an absolute treat. Or maybe I'm far too interested in seeing a fantastical depiction of Durga in battle.
I appreciate the staying true to source materiel but I feel like I shouldn't have to keep saying this is a fantasy show. Just because the author and legends are Polish should not mean that this is a Polish heritage show the is being appropriated. It is about Monsters and Magic. Hell yes, it's an inclusive show. I also happen to agree with you that paying actual cultural homage would be better but that is way to slow an avenue. I am also looking at this from an American point of view- where John Wayne played Genghis Khan and thy also made a movie about the Egyptian pantheon with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Gerard Butler in leading roles. I could be off on the world scale.
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Post by Dandelion on Oct 24, 2020 12:11:42 GMT
Netflix is a quarter-trillion dollar publicly-traded company with a global audience in the year 2020. They're just not going produce something that's all-white. Nor, imo, should they. Sapkowski's Polish-speaking 1990s audience doesn't resemble Netflix's audience at all. That pretty much (yes, kind of sadly) sums it up. No ways to avoid several ethnic choices.
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seth
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Post by seth on Oct 24, 2020 15:09:56 GMT
I watched the series without ever having read the books (didn't know there were books until now--gonna check them out) or played the video game. So I didn't have any expectations.
I liked the series--I thought the best story arc was Geralt and his day-to-day adventures. I would have liked to see more unique monster encounters.
The larger political story and war with the men in black was pretty confusing until the end when the timelines converged. I still don't know the motivations of the MIB. Overall I liked the actors though except for the Lioness--that character seemed really forced--she should have played it more like Xena to be a warrior queen.
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Post by nerdthenord on Oct 24, 2020 15:15:41 GMT
I watched the series without ever having read the books (didn't know there were books until now--gonna check them out) or played the video game. So I didn't have any expectations. I liked the series--I thought the best story arc was Geralt and his day-to-day adventures. I would have liked to see more unique monster encounters. The larger political story and war with the men in black was pretty confusing until the end when the timelines converged. I still don't know the motivations of the MIB. Overall I liked the actors though except for the Lioness--that character seemed really forced--she should have played it more like Xena to be a warrior queen. You mean the Nilfgaardians, the soldiers in black? In the books they are the Holy Roman Empire if Hitler was the Emperor. Racial supremacists and Expansionist Imperialists who want to conquer the entire world. There is a bit of prophecy and moral ambiguity to them about how part of their motivation is to exploit a prophecy and save the world from an apocalyptic ice age, but for the most part they are monsters who go around massacring and raping anything they want as an intentional war strategy. The writer is polish, so he combined the antagonism between Poland and the Holy Roman Empire during the latter's expansion east, and world war 2.
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Post by Dandelion on Oct 24, 2020 15:53:22 GMT
I watched the series without ever having read the books (didn't know there were books until now--gonna check them out) or played the video game. So I didn't have any expectations. I liked the series--I thought the best story arc was Geralt and his day-to-day adventures. I would have liked to see more unique monster encounters. The larger political story and war with the men in black was pretty confusing until the end when the timelines converged. I still don't know the motivations of the MIB. Overall I liked the actors though except for the Lioness--that character seemed really forced--she should have played it more like Xena to be a warrior queen. You mean the Nilfgaardians, the soldiers in black? In the books they are the Holy Roman Empire if Hitler was the Emperor. Racial supremacists and Expansionist Imperialists who want to conquer the entire world. There is a bit of prophecy and moral ambiguity to them about how part of their motivation is to exploit a prophecy and save the world from an apocalyptic ice age, but for the most part they are monsters who go around massacring and raping anything they want as an intentional war strategy. The writer is polish, so he combined the antagonism between Poland and the Holy Roman Empire during the latter's expansion east, and world war 2. I dont see the Nilfgaard empire so much racist; they even had a special brigade, the "Vrihedd", in the books (also mentioned in the games), completely formed of elves. They abused and wasted them in the end, of course. The rest of your interpretation is quite spot on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 15:54:08 GMT
There's a common theme I have detected with criticism of the show: the female characters. I should think it is less important who is portraying them and what color they are than whether or not they are interesting characters who possess some sort of agency. I found Yennefer an interesting character because she has trauma, ambition, real intelligence, she makes mistakes, and she has a real arc. I even found the Lioness interesting, even if she's not what others expected, because she seems to me to be similar to King Robert from ASOIF; she's bawdy, violent, and in my opinion, kinda trashy. My favorite moment is when she kicks one of her fighting men in the face and takes his sword. When I referred to the show previously as being low brow, I meant to say that some of the characters don't possess much nobility, their morality is dubious, etc... In my opinion, the real fault of the show is that there are really 4 or 5 different types of shows within the show: the buddy road trip genre, high fantasy, horror, gothic romance, etc... I found the shifting tone to be confusing. If they picked one genre and stuck with it, I would have appreciated it more. I thought it was more successful when it was just Geralt and his bard traveling around finding and slaying monsters, especially when it didn't take itself so seriously. As the dude would say, this is "just like my opinion, man."
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Post by nerdthenord on Oct 24, 2020 17:16:21 GMT
You mean the Nilfgaardians, the soldiers in black? In the books they are the Holy Roman Empire if Hitler was the Emperor. Racial supremacists and Expansionist Imperialists who want to conquer the entire world. There is a bit of prophecy and moral ambiguity to them about how part of their motivation is to exploit a prophecy and save the world from an apocalyptic ice age, but for the most part they are monsters who go around massacring and raping anything they want as an intentional war strategy. The writer is polish, so he combined the antagonism between Poland and the Holy Roman Empire during the latter's expansion east, and world war 2. I dont see the Nilfgaard empire so much racist; they even had a special brigade, the "Vrihedd", in the books (also mentioned in the games), completely formed of elves. They abused and wasted them in the end, of course. The rest of your interpretation is quite spot on. Nazi Germany actually did the exact same thing. They had irregular units from nations and ethnic groups they fully intended to exterminate eventually, such as various Slavs and Balts. The Nilfgaardians in the books also claim to be the rightful rulers of the world by being descended from Half Elves, and thus the successors to the decadent and fading Elves.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 17:17:23 GMT
I dont see the Nilfgaard empire so much racist; they even had a special brigade, the "Vrihedd", in the books (also mentioned in the games), completely formed of elves. They abused and wasted them in the end, of course. The rest of your interpretation is quite spot on. Nazi Germany actually did the exact same thing. They had irregular units from nations and ethnic groups they fully intended to exterminate eventually, such as various Slavs and Balts. The Nilfgaardians in the books also claim to be the rightful rulers of the world by being descended from Half Elves, and thus the successors to the decadent and fading Elves. Transpose Elves for Aryans and bob's your uncle.
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Post by treeslicer on Oct 24, 2020 18:30:25 GMT
I watched the series without ever having read the books (didn't know there were books until now--gonna check them out) or played the video game. So I didn't have any expectations. I liked the series--I thought the best story arc was Geralt and his day-to-day adventures. I would have liked to see more unique monster encounters. The larger political story and war with the men in black was pretty confusing until the end when the timelines converged. I still don't know the motivations of the MIB. Overall I liked the actors though except for the Lioness--that character seemed really forced--she should have played it more like Xena to be a warrior queen. You mean the Nilfgaardians, the soldiers in black? In the books they are the Holy Roman Empire if Hitler was the Emperor. Racial supremacists and Expansionist Imperialists who want to conquer the entire world. There is a bit of prophecy and moral ambiguity to them about how part of their motivation is to exploit a prophecy and save the world from an apocalyptic ice age, but for the most part they are monsters who go around massacring and raping anything they want as an intentional war strategy. The writer is polish, so he combined the antagonism between Poland and the Holy Roman Empire during the latter's expansion east, and world war 2. I'm not so sure they are based on the Nazis. You ever read Hoyt's Japan's War?
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seth
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Post by seth on Oct 24, 2020 19:13:45 GMT
I watched the series without ever having read the books (didn't know there were books until now--gonna check them out) or played the video game. So I didn't have any expectations. I liked the series--I thought the best story arc was Geralt and his day-to-day adventures. I would have liked to see more unique monster encounters. The larger political story and war with the men in black was pretty confusing until the end when the timelines converged. I still don't know the motivations of the MIB. Overall I liked the actors though except for the Lioness--that character seemed really forced--she should have played it more like Xena to be a warrior queen. You mean the Nilfgaardians, the soldiers in black? In the books they are the Holy Roman Empire if Hitler was the Emperor. Racial supremacists and Expansionist Imperialists who want to conquer the entire world. There is a bit of prophecy and moral ambiguity to them about how part of their motivation is to exploit a prophecy and save the world from an apocalyptic ice age, but for the most part they are monsters who go around massacring and raping anything they want as an intentional war strategy. The writer is polish, so he combined the antagonism between Poland and the Holy Roman Empire during the latter's expansion east, and world war 2. Yes. Nilfgard. I never understood their motivations from the show. I assumed it had to do with yennifer and the other wizard who was sent to to nilfgard because they didn't like each other. But it sounds like there is a much broader back story.
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seth
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Post by seth on Oct 24, 2020 19:20:02 GMT
I thought it was more successful when it was just Geralt and his bard traveling around finding and slaying monsters, especially when it didn't take itself so seriously. As the dude would say, this is "just like my opinion, man." Me too. I like the horror/fantasy aspect of the show.
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