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Post by stevezz1 on Jul 28, 2020 11:51:21 GMT
Hi All, I am interested in purchasing this sword but it looks like the grip and the 'end cap' (sorry, my sword anatomy is not very good) are recent replacements. The grip is actually bakelite. Could someone confirm this for me please. Any ideas on age and what would be a realistic price to pay for it. Is it worth going for it or would you leave it alone.....? Many thanks, Steve. ![]()     |
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Post by pellius on Jul 28, 2020 17:16:49 GMT
I own the Argentine version of the Prussian 1889. Dunno how similar they are, but my pommel nut looks like this:  |
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Post by stevezz1 on Jul 28, 2020 19:49:07 GMT
Many thanks Pellius.
The pommels look very similar...Do you know what date yours is?
Is your grip bakelite aswell?
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Post by pellius on Jul 28, 2020 21:41:40 GMT
A while back, I made a real effort to figure out when my saber was made, or at least estimate its age. Things got murky quick. Here’s what I can tell you.
First, definitive information about the Argentine m1898 is hard to come by.
I’ve seen many of them advertised for sale over the years. All had the same grip; a black textured plastic-like material. It could be Bakelite I suppose, but I’ve never seen a cracked or broken grip. In person, it doesn’t look like Bakelite to me, but I’ve only handled a few antique examples of the stuff.
Further, according to SBG’s local expert Pino, WKC may still be making the 1898 today for the Argentine military, as the cavalry saber is apparently still in ceremonial use.
I can’t tell if the modern saber is the same as the historical one. If it is, my m1898 may only be a couple of years old. On the other hand, I seriously doubt new sabers are made with Bakelite.
I emailed WKC with an inquiry. It has been months with no response, so I’m guessing they won’t be writing back.
I suppose the TLDR is 1) I do not know how old my saber is, and probably never will; and 2) I don’t think the grip is Bakelite, but I could be mistaken.
Oh, and 3) I wouldn’t buy the sword in your op regardless of the price, but that’s just me.
Sorry I couldn’t be of much help.
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Post by stevezz1 on Jul 28, 2020 21:57:59 GMT
Many thanks for taking the time to reply Pellius, very helpfull....
I am a bit surprised that you wouldn't buy that sword though, is there a specific reason why you wouldn't?
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Post by pellius on Jul 28, 2020 22:28:09 GMT
A wonky pommel nut hints at unseen shenanigans, as does an ad that doesn’t show the blade clearly. The part of the blade that is shown is a little rough (not bad, just not great). These are not rare or expensive, so might as well seek out a pristine example. Also, I’m just not a huge fan of pipeback blades. These apparently handle pretty nose heavy, which isn’t my preference. SBG’s Uhlan seems to like them, though. If you like it, though, grab it while the grabbin’s good. Here’s a correct pommel nut, courtesy of Uhlan:  sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/47987/imperial-prussian-cavalry-trooper-pipebackCheers! |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 29, 2020 4:41:10 GMT
Well, it's not a Prussian KD89 trooper. So that nut from Uhlans post may not be representative.
It looks okay to me personally given the finish and scarcity of nice nuts. I would hit Google images to see if you could find more examples of private purchase kd89 to compare to.
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Post by pellius on Jul 29, 2020 4:56:52 GMT
Thank you for the info.
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Post by stevezz1 on Jul 29, 2020 6:54:16 GMT
Many thanks Pellius and Jordan. Just found this one with the same end nut.....  |
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Post by stevezz1 on Jul 29, 2020 8:51:47 GMT
And another....  |
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Post by pellius on Jul 29, 2020 12:08:15 GMT
Most excellent!
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jul 29, 2020 13:19:01 GMT
Just a thought...
Antique Argentine 1898's can be had from about 100.00 to 600.00 depending on condition.
I got one of mine as a rusty beater for 100.00 and my nice one that is *almost* perfect except for the decommissioning grind marks for 265.00. Pino had one that was PERFECT and had not been decommissioned for about 550/600 a while back, if memory serves.
So some swords, are cheaper than the replicas.
As to the Bakelite handle...my beater 1898 has a cracked handle, and I'm no expert, but if it's not bakelite, I'd be shocked.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 29, 2020 13:55:13 GMT
The sabre from the OP looks like it has a hinged guard plate. Troopers had the right to buy private order sabres but those could not be worn when on duty. It looks like this is one of those. Ornate blade etching points in that direction too. Often there was a motto etched on there. Also the pins through the grip are missing. These were called ,,Mannschaft Extra Sabel''. To be worn outside of the barracks in the civilian world. As such they had to be very light compared to the real deal. Were made for show mostly. To awe the girls and the population in general. Some were gifts of buddies when the trooper reached the end of his service. These were marked (etched) ,,In memory of my time at regiment such and such '' + date. The pommel nut is a problem. I do not think it is original, but to find out you could look at as many examples as you can find via Google Images. Maybe it changed over time.(After 1916?) Grips were made of a bakelite like material. There are many with chipped or broken grips. You will have to look into the regimental numbers on the guilon too. The Extra sabres were not on the army books (Kammer stuck), as they were private purchase. Only a sabre (weapon) issued by the Kammer could and should have regimental numbers, the date of acceptance on the spine with a tax stamp underneath and inspection stamps on all parts. As the sabre above is not a Kammer piece I think the regimental numbers are spurious. But. And there we go again... Some troopers had permission to store their sabre in barracks, so these could have a rack number. I am not sure here as reading about this stuff was done way back. I am a bit rusty... To be very sure you'll have to go to one of the real experts: www.zietenhusar.wg.am/blankwaffen/ and to this forum: www.deutsches-blankwaffenforum.de/index.php?s=f29d9b2ab2989ff6dc549e93a5404b18 . Run both links through Google Translate if you do not read German. These two are the best sources for answers about anything even remotely German weaponry related. Although these ,,Extra'' sabres or ,,Degen'' had nothing on the real service weapon qua heft and build, these were not made badly at all. Do not get me wrong. They are just not made for battle. Together with the blade etchings, which can be of interest qua regiments and dates mentioned these are collectables in their own right as they offer insight in regimental history and are historically important pieces in general. Some, if the etching on the blade is of particular interest, even fetch higher prices than the battle or (Kammer) Officer variants. |
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Post by pellius on Jul 29, 2020 14:40:14 GMT
Thank you for the info.
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Post by stevezz1 on Jul 29, 2020 15:03:28 GMT
Many thanks Thorfin and Uhlan
Uhlan,
I found two more very similar pommel nuts after a quick google search, posted above....
Could they be attributed to a certain maker?
The one in the OP is made by Alcoso.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 29, 2020 15:16:17 GMT
No problem. Hope you'll find all (definitive) answers on the above mentioned sites.
Cheers.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 31, 2020 4:11:41 GMT
Many thanks Thorfin and Uhlan Uhlan, I found two more very similar pommel nuts after a quick google search, posted above.... Could they be attributed to a certain maker? The one in the OP is made by Alcoso. Could very well be maker related. Afterall the sword was a private order so regulations could be infringed upon. That is detailed info you could find at DBW forum. ALCOSO 1821 - 1999. ALexander COppel SOlingen. |
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Post by Polyester on Aug 21, 2020 15:02:50 GMT
on Prussian swords I only know these variants   Thomas |
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Uhlan
Member
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 22, 2020 13:09:31 GMT
The sabre of the OP is a Prussian Extra sabre. It has the Prussian Eagle on the hinge.
If the pommel nuts you show are the only known versions then one must conclude all other nuts are spurious. But I doubt that as there are now two of them. Could they be repairs done by the regimental armourer? Are both sabres ALCOSO? If so then it could be an ALCOSO related thing?
Like some after market solution to a lost pommel nut that is not longer made and/or in stock?
If the latter there could be another model that has these same wonky nuts as standard?
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Post by bas on Aug 22, 2020 23:49:46 GMT
A sword very similar to the one in the OP sold recently on a New Zealand Auction site. The same hinged guard and a very similar pommel nut. The blade had engraved on it the names of three Waterloo battles and the Dutch "Iron cutter" quality mark. The consensus from the comments was that the sword was genuine, but the markings highly unusual given the sword type. But as a private purchase, presentation sword it could make total sense.
Unfortunately I didn't keep copies of the auction photos and I think the auction link has expired now.
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