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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 21:12:15 GMT
So, I am about to record a pilot for a new podcast concerning Cult Classics. The first episode is on Conan the Barbarian. Now, I know there are more than a few fans of Conan in this forum, which is why I have come to ask you to leave me some input on this topic.
I realize that Conan has existed, for better or worse, in multiple genres over many decades. Some of you may be fans of Robert E. Howard's original pulp stories. I am a BIG Howard fan, so I feel your pain if you are not a fan of film Conan, although I enjoy both. However, Conan has also existed in the world of comics (Marvel, Dark Horse), the world of art (Frank Frazetta) and the world of film. So, whether you love the film or not, I would very much like your input.
What kind of input am I looking for? I'm not entirely sure. It depends on what you have to offer. Do you recall seeing the film when it was originally in theaters? If so, tell me about it. Are you a Robert E. Howard fanatic and you were pissed off about the film? Let me hear from you, and don't just tell me what you dislike about the film, tell me what you love about Conan from the pulps. Are you a comic book geek? Did you read the Marvel comics in the late 70s? Share with me your memories of comic book stores. The sky's the limit here provided we discuss Conan in one way or another. I would really appreciate your comments and general reflections.
Thanks!
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seth
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Post by seth on Mar 28, 2020 21:56:07 GMT
I love Conan, the novels, the comics, and the film. I read the comics in the 80's. I think I saw the film before I read the novels. I go so many of the novels from the used book store. I like the novel and comics character much better than the film, but I still like both. I think the film is great as its own story.
My favorite comics were the black and white magazine formats: The Savage Sword of Conan. I have a stack of those in mu office and read them during lunch sometimes.
I have all of the Howard novels and the L. Sprague De Camp novels. Most are held together with glue and rubber bands. I acquired them in middle school from seedy used book stores. Once I read the novels, I had a much better appreciation of the character. I even wrote a paper on the Howard novels in a freshman English class. I think the B&W magazine comics are in keeping with Howard's character.
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Post by demonskull on Mar 28, 2020 22:04:54 GMT
Thanks to Corona virus, I'm home as my job is considered non-essential in the state of NY. State mandated self quarantine for non-essential services for two weeks. In order to pass the time I ordered a 1/2 dozen Howard inspired character books. These are not original Howards' stories but written by other authors. I read most of Howards' original stories over the years and just figured I'd pick up some other stories.
1st thing I'd do is give a good background on Howard himself. Aside from the typical when, where and how, I'd include who his inspiration was and his friendship with Lovecraft. I'd also touch on his original barbarian character Kull, his supernatural based stories (Solomen Kane, Pigeons from Hell, etc )and his westerns (if you haven't heard of Breckenridge Elkins, do yourself a favor and find a copy of "A Gent from Bear Creek" ) then bring in Conan.
When dealing with Conan I'd explain what Howard wrote as to his origin and then how it was adapted in the two different film franchises.
I'd bring in the resurgence of the character and Howards' other works in the 60-70s, which will lead to the cover art, first of Frank Frazetta as he was the premier Fantasy artist of the era. Then a good mention of the other artist and the comics adaptation.
When discussing the movies I'd leave out personal opinion and just go with the similarities and the differences. As the books were my first introduction I share your feeling toward the films. Many of the younger folks' first acquaintance with Conan was the Arnold films.
Then a good chronology of the character would follow with distinctions made as to who wrote each of the stories.
Feel free to contact me and if I have any further suggestions, I'll tack them on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 22:10:56 GMT
This is terrific feedback so far. The goal of my podcast is to essentially connect the creative people behind the film. So my own opinion will be absent, mostly. I will be discussing Howard insomuch as I have to regarding the film itself, because the film is my topic. Sadly, I think Howard is rather absent from the adaptation. So, I will be recording a bonus episode exclusively devoted to Howard, because I have a LOT to say.
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 28, 2020 22:24:14 GMT
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seth
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Post by seth on Mar 29, 2020 2:24:58 GMT
Don't forget the parodies and satires.
Yes like Groo! or Conan the Librarian from UHF.
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seth
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Post by seth on Mar 29, 2020 2:26:22 GMT
This is terrific feedback so far. The goal of my podcast is to essentially connect the creative people behind the film. So my own opinion will be absent, mostly. I will be discussing Howard insomuch as I have to regarding the film itself, because the film is my topic. Sadly, I think Howard is rather absent from the adaptation. So, I will be recording a bonus episode exclusively devoted to Howard, because I have a LOT to say. You've probably seen it but the movie "The Whole Wide World" about Howard is excellent.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 2:34:47 GMT
I did see the film. Vincent D'Onofrio is a terrific Howard.
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seth
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Post by seth on Mar 29, 2020 2:40:05 GMT
I did see the film. Vincent D'Onofrio is a terrific Howard. Yeah he is--a great actor in everything he does. I wonder what Howard would have thought of the resurgence of the Hyborian age in the late 70's and 80's. I hope he knows how much people came to enjoy Conan.
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seth
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Post by seth on Mar 29, 2020 2:40:15 GMT
I did see the film. Vincent D'Onofrio is a terrific Howard. Yeah he is--a great actor in everything he does. I wonder what Howard would have thought of the resurgence of the Hyborian age in the late 70's and 80's. I hope he knows how much people came to enjoy Conan.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 2:46:17 GMT
He knew people enjoyed it even in his time. It got people interested in his writing, but it also annoyed him a bit. Mark Finn, a terrific biographer of Howard, calls Conan a "literary albatross."
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 29, 2020 3:02:53 GMT
I first saw the movie then started to read the novels. Short time after the movie there was a German book series with Howard's novels mixed with other authors' Conan adventures. I liked this stuff too. I've never read the graphic novels. Later I got all Howard novels together and was a bit disappointed about the repetition of very similar story elements. So personally I think the other authors' Conan novels are better. Heresy I know. And I still like the Arnie movies.
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Post by mumbles on Mar 29, 2020 6:38:59 GMT
I love the pulp and comic book Conan. I like the fact that the original stories loosely tied in with the Cthulhu Mythos of HP Lovecraft (who Howard was a friend of) and how Conan used his brawn and wits to fight sinister sorcerers and black serpent magic
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Post by MOK on Mar 29, 2020 12:09:31 GMT
The thing that most strikes me about the original stories is just the sheer driving energy of it all, and Conan himself in particular - the main thing about him is really just how proactive he is, how he's always going places and doing things for his own reasons and of his own initiative. He has actual concrete goals and desires that he actively pursues, and the stories are driven and molded by his actions instead of the other way around, which is amazingly rare in fiction!
I mean, even in stories like "Beyond the Black River" where he's not the main character, or like "A Witch Shall Be Born" in which he barely features at all, he's still the main driving force behind the story whether he's on or off "screen", either directly or through the various other players' reactions to his presence and actions.
That's also my main gripe with the Milius movie, though. It's a gorgeous film in every way, with awesome visual design and one of the most epic orchestral scores in modern cinema, and even some really good writing... but they made Conan a completely passive dullard who just wanders through the story, wide-eyed and slack-jawed, constantly pushed along by other people - sometimes physically so! - and the few times he actually does anything of his own accord he fails pathetically. I also can't help but think that the decision to portray him as a stone-faced wannabe stoic was mainly due to Ahnuld's acting ability at the time, as Howard's Conan was anything but stoic - I mean, what the hell happened to the "gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth"?! He never needed to get drunk to show his emotions in the stories, in those he's always quite openly on fire with whatever passing mood happens to be upon him!
I don't think it's any coincidence that almost all the myriad parodies of him are well nigh 100% based on his portrayal in the movies.
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Post by MOK on Mar 29, 2020 12:44:40 GMT
It's also fascinating how internally consistent his character remains through all the wildly episodic and written-out-of-order stories, randomly inspired by Howard's historical reading as most of them are: the nameless cat burglar in "The God in the Bowl", the bandit chieftain in "People of the Black Circle", the legendary frontiersman in "Beyond the Black River", the usurper king in "The Phoenix on the Sword", they're all recognizable as the same person. ... and then in "The Black Stranger" (seriously one of Howard's finest stories!) he still remains unmistakably himself despite finally saying "screw it!" and going all out, full frontal Long John frigging Silver, complete with old-timey pirate cosplay.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 13:49:16 GMT
It's also fascinating how internally consistent his character remains through all the wildly episodic and written-out-of-order stories, randomly inspired by Howard's historical reading as most of them are: the nameless cat burglar in "The God in the Bowl", the bandit chieftain in "People of the Black Circle", the legendary frontiersman in "Beyond the Black River", the usurper king in "The Phoenix on the Sword", they're all recognizable as the same person. ... and then in "The Black Stranger" (seriously one of Howard's finest stories!) he still remains unmistakably himself despite finally saying "screw it!" and going all out, full frontal Long John frigging Silver, complete with old-timey pirate cosplay. Well, if we accept the premise that Conan is essentially no different than the Texan gunslingers he idolized, then it's really not so surprising that his spirit is undaunted. Conan is consistent, isn't he? He's rather like Hercule Poirot or Philip Marlowe, except as you say, HE is the driving force behind the plot.
The way these stories were published is also rather interesting. Kull was his barbarian prototype, but he dropped the character when the publisher of Weird Tales didn't like the direction of where he was going, but he still retained the stories and had him make alterations. Kull just evolved into something else. There was a fluid dynamic to how he wrote these stories based on the erratic and unpredictable nature of the business. The pulps made their money by supersaturating the market with issue after issue, but writers never got paid until publication. So, he would receive an acceptance letter one day, but would get a check up to a year later upon publication. It was a strange business. So one can understand why he would drop characters altogether, or why a new character was a patchwork or amalgam of another. It kind of kept him on his toes. He didn't seem to mind or take it personally, he just kept chugging along, rather like Conan.
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Post by William Swiger on Mar 29, 2020 13:56:10 GMT
Having read all the Howard stories, Conan with Arnold was really a letdown on the original character. Big and dumb was the most part of the character in the Arnold movies. Jason Momoa was more physically what I would consider Conan to look like. Conan in the books was smart and physically muscled but not like a modern steroid bodybuilder. He was a thief, pirate, fighter, loved to drink, loved women, loved adventure, and had a barbarian code of conduct that guided him. He was brutal and could survive almost any hardships which he often found himself in. He was the total special forces soldier in his world. He was a total badass.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 14:33:17 GMT
I agree, William. Film Conan is a letdown compared to literary Conan. However, I think it's disappointing that more films were not made. Although Arnold was the not the ideal choice to play Howard's Conan, he did fit the bill for the comic book version cooked up by Roy Thomas. Conan the Barbarian should have been an origins film with ten or eleven more films to follow. The character could have eventually developed into the fast thinking, smart talking, driven, passionate character we all love. Conan the Destroyer was a little more Howard, I think, it was a sort of Western/Heist style film. You had the cast of oddballs, a dirty half dozen: the barbarian, the thief, the wizard, the warrior, the bodyguard, and the girl. You had the heist, then the double-cross, and then it's about betrayal. It wasn't a bad story, but it was not executed particularly well. If they had stuck with it, I think could have had potential, despite being far-removed from Howard's original vision. Still, I think James Earl Jones was badass, and Sandahl Bergman was a terrific Valeria, and definitely the kind of woman Howard admired.
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Post by MOK on Mar 29, 2020 16:51:33 GMT
Conan is the kind of character who seriously doesn't need an origin story, though. He doesn't have superpowers, a dark mysterious past, a tragic contrived reason to seek adventure, or a prophesied destiny to fulfill, he's just a complete and utter magnificent bastard who goes out and does exciting stuff because he can and wants to! I seriously don't understand why all the adaptations seem so allergic to the idea of just letting a dude kick ass and take names without making him another damn Batman...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 17:02:57 GMT
Conan is the kind of character who seriously doesn't need an origin story, though. He doesn't have superpowers, a dark mysterious past, a tragic contrived reason to seek adventure, or a prophesied destiny to fulfill, he's just a complete and utter magnificent bastard who goes out and does exciting stuff because he can and wants to! I seriously don't understand why all the adaptations seem so allergic to the idea of just letting a dude kick ass and take names without making him another damn Batman... Point taken. The film has its merits, but the character is a far cry from Howard's creation. Still, that's what happens with adaptation. Howard's pulp stories were published as a serial, then they were rebranded as novels with Frank Frazetta cover art, and then a couple new authors continued the work, then Marvel picked it up and ran with it for two decades, and by the time Ed Pressman at Universal got to it, Howard's creation had evolved into something else: a star making vehicle for a bodybuilder. It's a crazy movie and I love it, but not for it's resemblance to Howard's work.
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