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Post by pvsampson on Jan 19, 2020 11:42:31 GMT
Courtesy? They claim to be making tamahagane swords. That is not true,so any courtesy to a man/company that has lied about the product is not deserved. The fact is tamahagane is only made in Japan and not in a Chinese factory,simple as that. Useable iron sands in useable and economic masses are only to be found in Kanada, Japan and New Zealand (wikipedia has spoken). So JKoo/Sino would have to import iron sand from these countrie OR tamahagane which has been made in those countries. There is at least one smith in Germany who makes swords from his own made tamahagane; so why couldnt it be possible for JKoo/Sino to do it that way? I will try to back this up. But, i have to say, your hatred (i dont know a better word, maybe too strong?) on chinese swords/swordmakers is just as strange and disturbing as my mans hatred for DSA swords. How come that? We all know there are dishonest sellers out there, but: the only chinamade lemons WE (just we, no universal rule!) got were from Ronin and Hanwei. Did you have seriously bad experiences from other chinese makers? Just asking... Lol.Japanese made tamahagane would put the price of a Jkoo made sword into the thousands,not hundreds of dollars. Hatred? No,just calling their advertising of tamahagane for what it is. Bullsh#t. Only the Japanese make true tamahagane in a tatara. All others are just steel. And pig iron does not make it tamahagane. I thought that people here,as sword enthusiasts and collectors would be able to differentiate. If any custom smith claimed to use tamahagane then one would reasonably expect some sort of evidence. But a Chinese maker of entry level priced swords does not need to? And for them to claim they use pig iron as well? Laughable. |
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 12:09:50 GMT
Useable iron sands in useable and economic masses are only to be found in Kanada, Japan and New Zealand (wikipedia has spoken). So JKoo/Sino would have to import iron sand from these countrie OR tamahagane which has been made in those countries. There is at least one smith in Germany who makes swords from his own made tamahagane; so why couldnt it be possible for JKoo/Sino to do it that way? I will try to back this up. But, i have to say, your hatred (i dont know a better word, maybe too strong?) on chinese swords/swordmakers is just as strange and disturbing as my mans hatred for DSA swords. How come that? We all know there are dishonest sellers out there, but: the only chinamade lemons WE (just we, no universal rule!) got were from Ronin and Hanwei. Did you have seriously bad experiences from other chinese makers? Just asking... Lol.Japanese made tamahagane would put the price of a Jkoo made sword into the thousands,not hundreds of dollars. Hatred? No,just calling their advertising of tamahagane for what it is. Bullsh#t. Only the Japanese make true tamahagane in a tatara. All others are just steel. And pig iron does not make it tamahagane. I thought that people here,as sword enthusiasts and collectors would be able to differentiate. If any custom smith claimed to use tamahagane then one would reasonably expect some sort of evidence. But a Chinese maker of entry level priced swords does not need to? And for them to claim they use pig iron as well? Laughable. "Only the Japanese make true tamahagane in a tatara" THAT is not true if i remember right; as i said, there is one guy in Germany (i believe its SEELENSCHMIEDE) who does or has done it earlier. Again, i will try to back that up. Arent there some US guys as well? |
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 12:26:38 GMT
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 12:45:00 GMT
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 19, 2020 13:11:02 GMT
I have no problem with Cinese forges calling their swords "katana" even if it's a Japanese term.
For this term the Japanese origin isn't included, I think.
Different feeling if they would call it "nihonto".
I think "tamahagane" is somewhere between.
I wouldn't care if it's made in Japan or made out of iron sand or f.e. roasted pulverized ore.
But I think it's important that it's made in a bloomery to get the steel sponges with some slack included.
If a Chinese forge does it this way they may call it tamahagane.
But decarbonized pig iron is something so different that I think calling it tamahagane is false advertising.
But that's only my subjective opinion.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 19, 2020 13:50:39 GMT
I agree with that, call it something else that is exclusive to China. Idk how you would say “pig iron” in chinese but that would work. Just don’t call it tamahagane unless it is comming from Japan imo "tamahagane" is not a protected trademark... It should be though at least a trademark to japan |
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 19, 2020 13:51:55 GMT
Lol.Japanese made tamahagane would put the price of a Jkoo made sword into the thousands,not hundreds of dollars. Hatred? No,just calling their advertising of tamahagane for what it is. Bullsh#t. Only the Japanese make true tamahagane in a tatara. All others are just steel. And pig iron does not make it tamahagane. I thought that people here,as sword enthusiasts and collectors would be able to differentiate. If any custom smith claimed to use tamahagane then one would reasonably expect some sort of evidence. But a Chinese maker of entry level priced swords does not need to? And for them to claim they use pig iron as well? Laughable. "Only the Japanese make true tamahagane in a tatara" THAT is not true if i remember right; as i said, there is one guy in Germany (i believe its SEELENSCHMIEDE) who does or has done it earlier. Again, i will try to back that up. Arent there some US guys as well? Who wants tamahagane from China when you can get it from japan for a bit more though |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 19, 2020 14:22:26 GMT
Depends on how much money the "bit" is. And the Chinese method of decarbonizing pig iron is a really old Chinese technique, they invented it a few hundred years BC. They should be proud of it and give it a own Chinese name instead of calling it tamahagane. Perhaps "Zhubao gang"!  |
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 19, 2020 14:57:14 GMT
Depends on how much money the "bit" is. And the Chinese method of decarbonizing pig iron is a really old Chinese technique, they invented it a few hundred years BC. They should be proud of it and give it a own Chinese name instead of calling it tamahagane. Perhaps "Zhubao gang"! That’s what I said earlier in this thread. Don’t call it tamahagane |
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 15:28:29 GMT
Depends on how much money the "bit" is. And the Chinese method of decarbonizing pig iron is a really old Chinese technique, they invented it a few hundred years BC. They should be proud of it and give it a own Chinese name instead of calling it tamahagane. Perhaps "Zhubao gang"! That’s what I said earlier in this thread. Don’t call it tamahagane oh... So our Stefan Roth must invent a german name for the stuff because of your japan-fetish? Howard Clark or Rick Barett should not call their swords katana? Kris Cutlery must find Philippine names for their Dao and Xiphos and so on? Dont reply to that - i will not. Over and out. |
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 19, 2020 15:42:20 GMT
I've seen a lot of people use "orishigane," which is basically "self-made steel" or some such, to describe anything from steel made out of scrap bits or smelted from iron sand in the same method as tamahagane, but outside of Japan.
"Iron sand steel" is kind of a mouthful, and doesn't necessarily dictate the same process.
"Tamahagane" really just describes the steel, anyway. "Jewel steel" is the most common interpretation, though the first kanji really just means "ball" or at least something that is round. (玉鋼)
According to Google translate, the traditional Chinese equivalent is "Qiú gāng" (球鋼) and both just turn into "ball steel" in English. "Kugelstahl" in German, by the way.
So I guess if anybody outside of Japan makes steel in the traditional Japanese fashion, we just refer to them as having "balls of steel" so everybody will be happy.
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 15:43:59 GMT
I've seen a lot of people use "orishigane," which is basically "self-made steel" or some such, to describe anything from steel made out of scrap bits or smelted from iron sand in the same method as tamahagane, but outside of Japan. "Iron sand steel" is kind of a mouthful, and doesn't necessarily dictate the same process. "Tamahagane" really just describes the steel, anyway. "Jewel steel" is the most common interpretation, though the first kanji really just means "ball" or at least something that is round. (玉鋼) According to Google translate, the traditional Chinese equivalent is "Qiú gāng" (球鋼) and both just turn into "ball steel" in English. "Kugelstahl" in German, by the way. So I guess if anybody outside of Japan makes steel in the traditional Japanese fashion, we just refer to them as having "balls of steel" so everybody will be happy. Facing little sense making statements with humour - chapeau. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 19, 2020 15:48:08 GMT
Ferrum testiculus! (family jewels steel) |
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 17:13:57 GMT
Ferrum testiculus! (family jewels steel) Bavarians! *facepalm* xD |
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 19, 2020 17:36:24 GMT
That’s what I said earlier in this thread. Don’t call it tamahagane oh... So our Stefan Roth must invent a german name for the stuff because of your japan-fetish? Howard Clark or Rick Barett should not call their swords katana? Kris Cutlery must find Philippine names for their Dao and Xiphos and so on? Dont reply to that - i will not. Over and out. You can call it a katana as that is a style but don’t call it tamahagane unless it is made in Japan and yes I do have a japan fetish! |
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 19, 2020 17:40:32 GMT
That’s what I said earlier in this thread. Don’t call it tamahagane oh... So our Stefan Roth must invent a german name for the stuff because of your japan-fetish? Howard Clark or Rick Barett should not call their swords katana? Kris Cutlery must find Philippine names for their Dao and Xiphos and so on? Dont reply to that - i will not. Over and out. If your German peeps wanna make Japanese steel that is fine, still wouldn’t call it tamahagane same as if a Chinese person made it because it isn’t from japan so yes that is what I’m saying |
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Post by pvsampson on Jan 19, 2020 20:14:22 GMT
If it is not a murage making it,it is just an iron sand steel.
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 19, 2020 20:30:32 GMT
Hi folks, I got this from Van Yang and think I'll post a part of it(deleted middle is just where Van Yang tells me that my new swords are signed on the tang.:
====================
"Yes, Yu Wei Ping is our smith, But he is a assistant of master national smith, primary level of National smith..........Sand iron is very less in Longquan, no sand iron supplied in Longquan at present. We start from pig iron for tamahagane made"
================================
Van Yang is, as we all (well, maybe other than pvsimpson) know, Chinese so his English is not that of a native speaker.
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 19, 2020 21:11:10 GMT
Originally, Japan imported Chinese smiths and the Chinese product was highly regarded.
(I have the quote somewhere... )
RinC
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 20, 2020 5:32:41 GMT
Classical tamahagane starts with iron sands. And it is a big job to turn it into whatever it is that comes out of the tatara (sp?)...steel or iron? Perhaps we can say "iron sands tamahagane" and "pig iron tamahagane", as two types. But would nihonto purists agree? Not really, but the product might still be superior to mill steel (especially as an art medium) depending on how it's been worked. For one thing, the use of "tamahagane" to refer to the material used in all stages of its production process gives a false impression. It's as if somebody was equating the raw unsifted flour with the finished pastry.
The differences in the tatara tamahagane produced in Japan begin with the specific iron sand ore used (which determines some of the impurities), and then the tatara produces a mixture of carbon contents between "pig iron" and totally decarburized, in a rather chaotic process that may also be making odd carbon species such as fullerenes (which wind up as nanoinclusions). The primary difference however, IMHO, is dependent on the way that the smith sorts out the volcanic-looking mess he's delivered by breaking up the large lumps into smaller pieces, heating these, hammering them out into thin, flat wafers, then water quenching the wafers from a high orange heat. This produces little pieces at their maximum possible hardness, which are then sorted by their properties (by scratching, breaking, or bending them, etc.) into a range of hardnesses and appearances. Once the smith has selected the pieces he wants to make his billets from, he he stacks the pieces and forge welds them together. BTW, every master smith in Japan has his own bag of tricks for making his steel billets. Modeling has shown that detectable traces of structure from the billet making process will survive into the finished sword, and influence the appearance of the hada and hamon.
Unless the Chinese are replicating the billet making process described above, by making composite billets from little stacks of thin wafers of different quenched steels (perhaps produced from their pig iron by different degrees of decarburization) before the sword forging proper begins, I'd question whether "Chinese tamahagane" confers any benefits over folding high-carbon mill steels.
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