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Post by loveofswords on Jan 13, 2020 8:36:46 GMT
I , also , share that skepticism that they smelt their own steel because it’s a very labor intensive process and would also require more careful forging and folding to drive out the impurities and homogenized the carbon content. Despite their claims of using “tamahagane” I suspect that they’re using a folded billet of varies modern steel alternating between low carbon to high carbon to give off the appearance of a “hada.”
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 13, 2020 9:31:22 GMT
Real Japanese tamahagane is made of Japanese iron sand in a special bloomery or furnace where most of the slack is melted out and steel sponges (blooms) with various carbon content remain, the ones with very high carbon (ca. 1,5 %) are called tamahagane. Chinese tamahagane is said to be made out of pig iron with a process that reduces the 4 % carbon to under 2 % so that it can be forged. It might be the same process as it is described in the ksky links down to make oroshigane. At what exact moment they claim it to be their tamahagane I don't know. That's a very old traditional Chinese technique btw. But with industrial methods it's much cheaper to produce than Japanese tamahagane. It probably is even the better steel, but real tamahagane is famous for its traitional Japanese production method. www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/ironandsteel.htmlwww.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/forging.htmlwww.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/kap_b/backbone/rb_6_4.html |
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 14, 2020 5:38:17 GMT
"Very doubtful that Jkoo are using pig iron"
-----------------
I asked Van Yang if the tamahagane was made from iron sands.
He said they are making it from chunks of iron (pig iron).
Sent me some pics.
Is he lying?
I would bet he is not lying, because:
.1. He has been honest in my dealings with him.
.2. I have an invite to come visit with my Mainland Chinese wife (who speaks Cantonese, Mandarin and Taishan local...plus English) and Van knows I would be coming to see how Jkoo makes swords from A to Z.
.3. I notice that some folks are awfully quick on the trigger about accusing Chinese sword makers to be dishonest.
Yes, I have experience with dishonest Chinese. Van? Nope. My read and experience with Van Yang is that he is honest.
RinC
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 14, 2020 5:46:42 GMT
Thank you ATB.
I have folded blades.
Jkoo tamahagane blades look folded, but in a kind of different, finer way than their folded blades.
I would suggest, when dealing with Chinese folks, that we don't say we think they are lying.
Unless we have proof.
On an airgun enthusiasts forum, years and years ago, I would post some of my groups done at longish airgun distances.
And would be called, by some, a liar (i.e. 5 pellet, 1" ctc groups, at 60 yds, from a rest, using West German better gear).
Until others started (with the PCP craze), doing that and better.
R
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 14, 2020 7:25:48 GMT
Thank you ATB. I have folded blades. Jkoo tamahagane blades look folded, but in a kind of different, finer way than their folded blades. I would suggest, when dealing with Chinese folks, that we don't say we think they are lying. Unless we have proof. On an airgun enthusiasts forum, years and years ago, I would post some of my groups done at longish airgun distances. And would be called, by some, a liar (i.e. 5 pellet, 1" ctc groups, at 60 yds, from a rest, using West German better gear). Until others started (with the PCP craze), doing that and better. R You can pop a 5 pellet hole in hole group at that distance totally  I usually do it at 50 with a PCP but have seen it done by my father with his Weirauch HW97. I used to be better with my R9 but ever seen getting my FX Tarantula I need practice. *sigh* PCP make you forget what a springer is like. But for hunting they are the best and better than a regular .22 for small game. |
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Post by pvsampson on Jan 14, 2020 9:33:46 GMT
"Very doubtful that Jkoo are using pig iron" ----------------- I asked Van Yang if the tamahagane was made from iron sands. He said they are making it from chunks of iron (pig iron). Sent me some pics. Is he lying? I would bet he is not lying, because: .1. He has been honest in my dealings with him. .2. I have an invite to come visit with my Mainland Chinese wife (who speaks Cantonese, Mandarin and Taishan local...plus English) and Van knows I would be coming to see how Jkoo makes swords from A to Z. .3. I notice that some folks are awfully quick on the trigger about accusing Chinese sword makers to be dishonest. Yes, I have experience with dishonest Chinese. Van? Nope. My read and experience with Van Yang is that he is honest. RinC Edited. Not going to bother |
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Post by kaiyo on Jan 14, 2020 10:37:28 GMT
nice review, looking forward to read about your tamahagane sword experience
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 14, 2020 13:19:02 GMT
"Very doubtful that Jkoo are using pig iron" ----------------- I asked Van Yang if the tamahagane was made from iron sands. He said they are making it from chunks of iron (pig iron). Sent me some pics. Is he lying? I would bet he is not lying, because: .1. He has been honest in my dealings with him. .2. I have an invite to come visit with my Mainland Chinese wife (who speaks Cantonese, Mandarin and Taishan local...plus English) and Van knows I would be coming to see how Jkoo makes swords from A to Z. .3. I notice that some folks are awfully quick on the trigger about accusing Chinese sword makers to be dishonest. Yes, I have experience with dishonest Chinese. Van? Nope. My read and experience with Van Yang is that he is honest. RinC Edited. Not going to bother I would give them the benefit of the doubt. If he invited him to see it then why would he lie? |
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 14, 2020 13:52:14 GMT
Two favorites...R9 and HW97k :-)
Ahem, wrong forum...sorry.
I knew a woman who would lie. When confronted, she said that well, everyone lies.
Chinese come in all flavors of honesty....like anyone else.
But they don't like folks who call them liars, without proof.
Such is a fast track to not be accepted into Chinese society.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 14, 2020 14:09:21 GMT
It's absolute believable that they make the steel they call tamahagane from pig iron as described.
The problem is to call it tamahagane.
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reptaronice1
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 14, 2020 14:13:13 GMT
It's absolute believable that they make the steel they call tamahagane from pig iron as described. The problem is to call it tamahagane. I agree with that, call it something else that is exclusive to China. Idk how you would say “pig iron” in chinese but that would work. Just don’t call it tamahagane unless it is comming from Japan imo |
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Jan 14, 2020 20:25:39 GMT
It's absolute believable that they make the steel they call tamahagane from pig iron as described. The problem is to call it tamahagane. I agree with that, call it something else that is exclusive to China. Idk how you would say “pig iron” in chinese but that would work. Just don’t call it tamahagane unless it is comming from Japan imo 'Chinese' tamahagane? Then go on and describe how its different from Japanese one. Problem solved. |
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Post by pvsampson on Jan 15, 2020 3:26:01 GMT
Two favorites...R9 and HW97k :-) Ahem, wrong forum...sorry. I knew a woman who would lie. When confronted, she said that well, everyone lies. Chinese come in all flavors of honesty....like anyone else. But they don't like folks who call them liars, without proof. Such is a fast track to not be accepted into Chinese society. That is the second time you have alluded to me calling whatever his name is a liar. I never did,and I said I doubt that Jkoo are making their own steel from pig iron. Jkoo advertise T10 and some 1050 swords,and that is not iron but steel. Also I don't care about Chinese society. So....You will not let it lie, so I am calling you out. Prove to me that they are making their own T10 and 1050. If I am wrong then I am wrong and that is ok, but let's get the facts correct here on this forum. Show me their blast furnace. Actual evidence that a producer of some of the cheapest available swords in the world are actually making their own steel through a process requiring very specific,very serious machinery that would require them to make tons of steel a day to be cost effective. I do not believe they are using pig iron ingots and I feel there is a loss of translation somewhere. |
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 15, 2020 5:42:41 GMT
Every modern steel is made of pig iron that gets decarbonized.
I think it's plausible that Chinese forges take some pieces and do this in a unusual way to produce what they call tamahagane.
Probably not all forges or sellers of "tamahagane" swords make their own.
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Post by pvsampson on Jan 15, 2020 6:00:52 GMT
Every modern steel is made of pig iron that gets decarbonized. I think it's plausible that Chinese forges take some pieces and do this in a unusual way to produce what they call tamahagane. Probably not all forges or sellers of "tamahagane" swords make their own. These are good points. If,IF they are using pig iron they need to get it to molten state,add limestone etc,etc to get it usable. My doubts are that why would they bother,when in actual fact they could be just folding steel and calling it tamahagane to sell it for a higher price? If they are not using a blast furnace to produce their own steel,and only a smaller set up for the fake tamahagane,then why are those swords not way more expensive? Making steel from iron is not a minor process,and to do so would elevate the price more into a couple thousand,not $699 USD. I know the Chinese work for cheaper wages and things are different but if Jkoo are producing a steel in a similar way to tamahagane then I will honestly be shocked. If I am wrong then so be it,but I think that if a sword maker that is well promoted here has stated that they are using pig iron to make steel then why not prove it? OP has a nice sword and it looks well made for the price. I questioned,was accused of calling Jkoo a liar,responded and removed as I could not be bothered last night,but when accused again then these posts are the result. |
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Post by Turok on Jan 16, 2020 4:18:43 GMT
Would assume so. Ah, someone has played Turok (was also a Turok2)...Nintendo64...good game. RinC Hey thanks, Robert! Turok Rage Wars and Seeds of Evil was my favorite as a kid. I think you're the first one to point that out after all the years I've been on this forum! :D
I've never heard of a national level smith named Wu Ping Yu but I would like to know who made this katana.
Yu 余 is a very common Chinese surname and the mei is a little crude. Maybe it was an assistant who was doing the engraving?
What I find most unusual is that the mei is dated with a gengo. Most Chinese smiths like Paul Chen and Sam Sung date their mei with lunar zodiac calendar or with arabic numerals. Many Japanese don't even use the Emperor era name on a daily basis.
Anyway, I think the sword you've got has the best Sughua hamon I've ever seen on a sub $300 katana! It just shows how fast Chinese smiths are improving. I remember way back when the Masahiro Bamboo was highly regarded as the best bang for the buck! 8-)
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 18, 2020 19:28:26 GMT
Welcome Turok...(how I enjoyed that game! Virtual fun with a bow).
Tamahagane from pig iron chunks sounds a possible candidate...
What if from Chinese (instead of Japanese) iron sands...."Chinese tamahagane".
For sure, if Jkoo had to start with iron sands, a tamahagane blade would not sell for only $500.
Time is money.
The question is, not if the Jkoo tamahagane blades are made from pig iron chunks as Van Yang told me, but
rather if a resulting blade steel is going to be better or worse than an iron sands blade, given equal
skill smiths. I would think most smiths can make a tougher blade out of modern mono steels like T10 tool or 1095 high carbon.
BTW, my wife read the nakago of this dotanuki and she agreed with the signature (of course there are a lot of "Yu"s in China).
I emailed the question to Van Yang and will let you know what I get back, when I get a reply.
As for pvsimpson, Van Yang says something. Courtesy would demand you have some basis for saying you don't believe his claims,
on a public forum. You want proof...super! Go order some Jkoo swords. Get a lab to do analysis, and your curiosity and doubts will be answered. It would be good information to share here. Folks would be interested.
RinC
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Post by pvsampson on Jan 18, 2020 21:37:03 GMT
Courtesy? They claim to be making tamahagane swords. That is not true,so any courtesy to a man/company that has lied about the product is not deserved. The fact is tamahagane is only made in Japan and not in a Chinese factory,simple as that.
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 11:34:33 GMT
Courtesy? They claim to be making tamahagane swords. That is not true,so any courtesy to a man/company that has lied about the product is not deserved. The fact is tamahagane is only made in Japan and not in a Chinese factory,simple as that. Useable iron sands in useable and economic masses are only to be found in Kanada, Japan and New Zealand (wikipedia has spoken). So JKoo/Sino would have to import iron sand from these countrie OR tamahagane which has been made in those countries. There is at least one smith in Germany who makes swords from his own made tamahagane; so why couldnt it be possible for JKoo/Sino to do it that way? I will try to back this up. But, i have to say, your hatred (i dont know a better word, maybe too strong?) on chinese swords/swordmakers is just as strange and disturbing as my mans hatred for DSA swords. How come that? We all know there are dishonest sellers out there, but: the only chinamade lemons WE (just we, no universal rule!) got were from Ronin and Hanwei. Did you have seriously bad experiences from other chinese makers? Just asking... |
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Post by Dandelion on Jan 19, 2020 11:39:39 GMT
It's absolute believable that they make the steel they call tamahagane from pig iron as described. The problem is to call it tamahagane. I agree with that, call it something else that is exclusive to China. Idk how you would say “pig iron” in chinese but that would work. Just don’t call it tamahagane unless it is comming from Japan imo "tamahagane" is not a protected trademark... |
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I usually do it at 50 with a PCP but have seen it done by my father with his Weirauch HW97. I used to be better with my R9 but ever seen getting my FX Tarantula I need practice. *sigh* PCP make you forget what a springer is like. But for hunting they are the best and better than a regular .22 for small game.
