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Post by tensho on Dec 30, 2019 22:42:37 GMT
Got mine today. Blades were all greased up. Not sure if this is a Windlass thing? But, I'm not complaining usually everything I get here comes rusty if not oiled properly.
I bought the munitions grade of the Arbedo and Towton as I really didn't need them. Honestly I can't tell what is bad on them besides the Arbedo has a not so good looking peen. Was a great deal for $212 though.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 31, 2019 0:15:15 GMT
Got mine today. Blades were all greased up. Not sure if this is a Windlass thing? But, I'm not complaining usually everything I get here comes rusty if not oiled properly. I bought the munitions grade of the Arbedo and Towton as I really didn't need them. Honestly I can't tell what is bad on them besides the Arbedo has a not so good looking peen. Was a great deal for $212 though. Huh. Munitions grade is really rather inexpensive, intriguingly so. Any flaws with the blade edges or flats?
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Post by tensho on Dec 31, 2019 0:50:26 GMT
I checked them again under some good light. The only issues I can see on the towton is some rippling while looking down the blade. Which I assumed was typical of Windlass? I can't see any other issues. The Arbedo has the same ripples. But, the "ridge" running down the blade is perfect until it reaches the tip. It seems someone ground to much to one side. Actually looks somewhat like the picture on KoA but not as bad. Other than that the pommel is a little rough looking from the peen. Honestly, these look much, much better than the "Seconds" Balaur Arms swords I bought.
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Post by Matt KOA on Dec 31, 2019 4:02:48 GMT
The comparably inexpensive price on munitions grade items has to do with them being "priced to move" more than anything else otherwise they would pile up too quickly and at a rapid pace to boot. Its a bit upsetting just how much stuff doesn't pass "full price muster" on a regular basis and must be discounted to blemish / MG / blowout discount categories. I'm not surprised to see that it can have the side effect of arousing suspicion.
A part of the discount comes also from the fact that the customer must take a gamble on the item in question. We do not have the time or staff to sell each flawed item with its own listing, photos and description. I would say that most munitions grade items have mild to medium flaws / blade asymmetry outside of the standard allowed for that item. The truly bad and ugly stuff gets further knocked down to "blowout" category.
Of course there is a bit of subjectivity involved in the eye of the beholder. In assisting customers in person on our location I have seen how some customers will be ready to purchase an item they chose from among a selection and in my final look over I will notice that it has munitions grade level of flaws. I will point this out and offer them the discount and they are usually quite happy to take the discount as the flaw doesn't bother them even after it is pointed out to them before cash is exchanged.
On the other side of the spectrum I have also seen others closely analyzing new full price items and I have also seen it occur at times where a discerning customer will bring an array of measuring tools to look at new swords. There isn't anything wrong with this I just mention it to illustrate a point as to how different attitudes toward fit and finish can vary.
So for people who do not mind some flaws on the minor to medium scale munitions grade works out well for them. If you know that knowing something is slightly "off" would bother you then its best to stick to standard price.
Personally I find it interesting to see how some people don't mind or even prefer some asymmetry (that "handmade" personality) and how others would be most satisfied with something fabricated to dimensional perfection with all the state of the art manufacturing processes possible. Swords are in an interesting place in regards to this expectation by being an item of the pre-industrial era, but now are being created in the modern era both with and without substantial technological assistance to the craftsman. Without a definition of how they should be in relation to how they were and how they could be (with the assistance of modern material and technology) they are in an interesting crossroads in our imagination and how it intercedes with reality.
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Post by zabazagobo on Dec 31, 2019 5:37:20 GMT
The comparably inexpensive price on munitions grade items has to do with them being "priced to move" more than anything else otherwise they would pile up too quickly and at a rapid pace to boot. Its a bit upsetting just how much stuff doesn't pass "full price muster" on a regular basis and must be discounted to blemish / MG / blowout discount categories. I'm not surprised to see that it can have the side effect of arousing suspicion. A part of the discount comes also from the fact that the customer must take a gamble on the item in question. We do not have the time or staff to sell each flawed item with its own listing, photos and description. I would say that most munitions grade items have mild to medium flaws / blade asymmetry outside of the standard allowed for that item. The truly bad and ugly stuff gets further knocked down to "blowout" category. Of course there is a bit of subjectivity involved in the eye of the beholder. In assisting customers in person on our location I have seen how some customers will be ready to purchase an item they chose from among a selection and in my final look over I will notice that it has munitions grade level of flaws. I will point this out and offer them the discount and they are usually quite happy to take the discount as the flaw doesn't bother them even after it is pointed out to them before cash is exchanged. On the other side of the spectrum I have also seen others closely analyzing new full price items and I have also seen it occur at times where a discerning customer will bring an array of measuring tools to look at new swords. So for people who do not mind some flaws on the minor to medium scale munitions grade works out well for them. If you know that knowing something is slightly "off" would bother you then its best to stick to standard price. Personally I find it interesting to see how some people don't mind or even prefer some asymmetry (that "handmade" personality) and how others would be most satisfied with something fabricated to dimensional perfection with all the state of the art manufacturing processes possible. Swords are in an interesting place in regards to this expectation by being an item of the pre-industrial era, but now are being created in the modern era both with and without substantial technological assistance to the craftsman. Without a definition of how they should be in relation to how they were and how they could be (with the assistance of modern material and technology) they are in an interesting crossroads in our imagination and how it intercedes with reality. It's very cool to hear your perspectives on the matter, and it is always refreshing when a person is passionate enough about their line of work to become as involved with product inspection and working towards guiding customers towards a product suited towards their interests.
I do agree, it is interesting to parcel out which parts of "imperfection" or "perfection" are acceptable, and as you stated it is wildly specific to the individual. For me, I'm not so concerned if a blade's polish has some light scratches (proof it was finished by hand, it could be argued, and something that would likely occur with use anyways), but in the case of something like katana, if the grip wrap is even slightly loose it's an instant fail in my book. Similarly, if a quillon is slightly bent out of shape it can in some cases be charming, but if a tsuba isn't fit to the nakago correctly and requires trial and error shimming, it's an exercise in aggravation. The flaws that end up frustrating me are the ones where components aren't fit properly or grips that loosen and wear a bit more quickly than I'd like. Otherwise, I find it more appropriate to embrace the whole 'perfection in imperfection', wabi-sabi aspect with the less key, non-structural considerations. But that's just me, and I'd still probably bring a set of calipers if I stopped by your shop in person, simply because it would be fun
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Post by Matt KOA on Dec 31, 2019 19:38:34 GMT
The comparably inexpensive price on munitions grade items has to do with them being "priced to move" more than anything else otherwise they would pile up too quickly and at a rapid pace to boot. Its a bit upsetting just how much stuff doesn't pass "full price muster" on a regular basis and must be discounted to blemish / MG / blowout discount categories. I'm not surprised to see that it can have the side effect of arousing suspicion. A part of the discount comes also from the fact that the customer must take a gamble on the item in question. We do not have the time or staff to sell each flawed item with its own listing, photos and description. I would say that most munitions grade items have mild to medium flaws / blade asymmetry outside of the standard allowed for that item. The truly bad and ugly stuff gets further knocked down to "blowout" category. Of course there is a bit of subjectivity involved in the eye of the beholder. In assisting customers in person on our location I have seen how some customers will be ready to purchase an item they chose from among a selection and in my final look over I will notice that it has munitions grade level of flaws. I will point this out and offer them the discount and they are usually quite happy to take the discount as the flaw doesn't bother them even after it is pointed out to them before cash is exchanged. On the other side of the spectrum I have also seen others closely analyzing new full price items and I have also seen it occur at times where a discerning customer will bring an array of measuring tools to look at new swords. So for people who do not mind some flaws on the minor to medium scale munitions grade works out well for them. If you know that knowing something is slightly "off" would bother you then its best to stick to standard price. Personally I find it interesting to see how some people don't mind or even prefer some asymmetry (that "handmade" personality) and how others would be most satisfied with something fabricated to dimensional perfection with all the state of the art manufacturing processes possible. Swords are in an interesting place in regards to this expectation by being an item of the pre-industrial era, but now are being created in the modern era both with and without substantial technological assistance to the craftsman. Without a definition of how they should be in relation to how they were and how they could be (with the assistance of modern material and technology) they are in an interesting crossroads in our imagination and how it intercedes with reality. It's very cool to hear your perspectives on the matter, and it is always refreshing when a person is passionate enough about their line of work to become as involved with product inspection and working towards guiding customers towards a product suited towards their interests.
I do agree, it is interesting to parcel out which parts of "imperfection" or "perfection" are acceptable, and as you stated it is wildly specific to the individual. For me, I'm not so concerned if a blade's polish has some light scratches (proof it was finished by hand, it could be argued, and something that would likely occur with use anyways), but in the case of something like katana, if the grip wrap is even slightly loose it's an instant fail in my book. Similarly, if a quillon is slightly bent out of shape it can in some cases be charming, but if a tsuba isn't fit to the nakago correctly and requires trial and error shimming, it's an exercise in aggravation. The flaws that end up frustrating me are the ones where components aren't fit properly or grips that loosen and wear a bit more quickly than I'd like. Otherwise, I find it more appropriate to embrace the whole 'perfection in imperfection', wabi-sabi aspect with the less key, non-structural considerations. But that's just me, and I'd still probably bring a set of calipers if I stopped by your shop in person, simply because it would be fun ------------- Thank you for the kind words. I would consider myself a collector as well so my work is not just my livelihood but one of my main hobby / interests as well, so how our store is regarded in the community concerns me as I wish to take pride in my work and what we do. All the flaws you mention that would annoy you are the ones that would bother me as well when they move beyond simply being handcrafted asymmetry and into becoming flaws which negatively affect its structure and overall build. Nobody wants wobbling tsubas or a peen loosening prematurely. That is not a bad personal benchmark to use when assessing the state of a sword you have on hand.
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pattyb0009
Member
Getting into antique sabers...
Posts: 1,867
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Post by pattyb0009 on Dec 31, 2019 21:14:48 GMT
MAN, I wish I'd known about the Arbedo! lol
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reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 1, 2020 5:07:28 GMT
My parents blame you for my nagging XD
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seth
Member
Just Peachy
Posts: 977
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Post by seth on Jan 3, 2020 0:35:26 GMT
Any end date on this sale? I have my eye on a few things but need to recharge.
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Post by pellius on Jan 3, 2020 2:20:21 GMT
Matt KOA - thanks for sharing your thoughts and insight. Also, I appreciate the more detailed explanation of “munitions grade.”
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Jash
Member
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum!"
Posts: 297
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Post by Jash on Jan 3, 2020 7:47:31 GMT
Matt - appreciate the insight as well. Plus I had a little chat over the phone with Kay from KOA. Today I finally finalized my layaway order. But thanks to the bad influence of you fine people, I added a Munitions Grade Arbedo to the final order lol. I was eyeing it for $140, but waited too long. The $100 one was too good to pass up. Fingers crossed my first Munitions Grade sword turns out to be within my expectations Due to time - I canceled sharpening on all the swords in that order. So instead, I picked up the Deepeeka Munitions Grade Celtic sword for $61. With 2 Balaur swords, 2 Deepeeka swords, and the Arbedo - I guess 2020 is the year I learn how to put an edge on a sword haha.
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seth
Member
Just Peachy
Posts: 977
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Post by seth on Jan 3, 2020 15:42:59 GMT
Matt - appreciate the insight as well. Plus I had a little chat over the phone with Kay from KOA. Today I finally finalized my layaway order. But thanks to the bad influence of you fine people, I added a Munitions Grade Arbedo to the final order lol. I was eyeing it for $140, but waited too long. The $100 one was too good to pass up. Fingers crossed my first Munitions Grade sword turns out to be within my expectations Due to time - I canceled sharpening on all the swords in that order. So instead, I picked up the Deepeeka Munitions Grade Celtic sword for $61. With 2 Balaur swords, 2 Deepeeka swords, and the Arbedo - I guess 2020 is the year I learn how to put an edge on a sword haha. I really like the process of sharpening swords. Don't know why but something kind of meditative about it plus being more hands on with the blades.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Jan 3, 2020 18:13:29 GMT
I know a lot of guys here like the power belt sanders but I prefer doing it by hand. Yeah it takes longer but that's okay for me. I have a job where when things are slow which is quite often I can do it at work. So technically I'm getting paid to sharpen my own swords. I've done a lot of wood working projects there too. Been looking at getting one of these to speed it up a little.
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Jash
Member
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum!"
Posts: 297
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Post by Jash on Jan 4, 2020 23:17:47 GMT
Matt - appreciate the insight as well. Plus I had a little chat over the phone with Kay from KOA. Today I finally finalized my layaway order. But thanks to the bad influence of you fine people, I added a Munitions Grade Arbedo to the final order lol. I was eyeing it for $140, but waited too long. The $100 one was too good to pass up. Fingers crossed my first Munitions Grade sword turns out to be within my expectations Due to time - I canceled sharpening on all the swords in that order. So instead, I picked up the Deepeeka Munitions Grade Celtic sword for $61. With 2 Balaur swords, 2 Deepeeka swords, and the Arbedo - I guess 2020 is the year I learn how to put an edge on a sword haha. I really like the process of sharpening swords. Don't know why but something kind of meditative about it plus being more hands on with the blades. I can understand that. I've always found it relaxing when cleaning swords or stone sharpening knives. Guess this is the next logical step for my skill development lol. I know a lot of guys here like the power belt sanders but I prefer doing it by hand. Yeah it takes longer but that's okay for me. I have a job where when things are slow which is quite often I can do it at work. So technically I'm getting paid to sharpen my own swords. I've done a lot of wood working projects there too. Been looking at getting one of these to speed it up a little. Hahah. I used to work at an Outing Goods store, in charge of the sword / knife department. When it was slow, i'd pass the time by sharpening my knives, or coworkers' knives, or customers' knives lol. Got paid to talk about, play with, and sell blades. That was a good time.
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Post by Matt KOA on Jan 5, 2020 5:30:50 GMT
Any end date on this sale? I have my eye on a few things but need to recharge. I asked around and there doesn't seem to be a set date for the sale to end. Could be quite soon or could be notably longer. I would guess that it will end when our owner Ryan feels that the time has passed to entice in Christmas gift money that customers received. It wouldn't surprise me as well if some items go off sale sooner whilst others remain. No satisfying answers for your question yet I'm afraid.
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Post by Matt KOA on Jan 5, 2020 5:46:21 GMT
Matt KOA - thanks for sharing your thoughts and insight. Also, I appreciate the more detailed explanation of “munitions grade.” You are welcome. I hope it helped convey them in a general sense and the reality of buying something marked out as flawed. Our standard description of them on the website lists the sort of flaws we are looking for which will land a sword in this discount category. Just to mention though for the general audience - Swords which pass inspection and aren't considered munitions grade aren't "perfect" either though, they are just considered within standard quality parameters. You can find "flaws" on even an Albion if you raise your standards to "absolute micro-dimensional perfection and symmetry" Thankfully most people know that is unrealistic for products made by or finished by human hands.
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Post by Matt KOA on Jan 5, 2020 6:30:36 GMT
Matt - appreciate the insight as well. Plus I had a little chat over the phone with Kay from KOA. Today I finally finalized my layaway order. But thanks to the bad influence of you fine people, I added a Munitions Grade Arbedo to the final order lol. I was eyeing it for $140, but waited too long. The $100 one was too good to pass up. Fingers crossed my first Munitions Grade sword turns out to be within my expectations :) Due to time - I canceled sharpening on all the swords in that order. So instead, I picked up the Deepeeka Munitions Grade Celtic sword for $61. With 2 Balaur swords, 2 Deepeeka swords, and the Arbedo - I guess 2020 is the year I learn how to put an edge on a sword haha. Thats quite the haul for an all-in-one go! Hope everything is up to your expectations as well. As I mentioned in other posts there is a bit of a gambling element with munitions grade items. Many of them actually look normal and fine until you start looking down the blade with the intention of spotting problems and thats when things like wavy blade edges, an asymmetric grind near the tip, blade twist or a moderate to medium crescent bend in the blade are noticeable. Some are more immediately apparent even before looking down the blade like a notably asymmetric crossguard, but still not so bad as to be relegated to a blowout. Since most customers can't come here personally to pick them out for themselves the low price is the "take a chance button" for an item landing on the mild to medium grade flaws. But thankfully you don't have to worry about that "take a chance" resulting in something structurally defective or woefully misshapen on a more severe level when compared to more common and less severe flaws. Also - if need be you can return munitions grade items if you don't like them under the standard 45-day return policy.
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seth
Member
Just Peachy
Posts: 977
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Post by seth on Jan 5, 2020 14:35:01 GMT
Any end date on this sale? I have my eye on a few things but need to recharge. I asked around and there doesn't seem to be a set date for the sale to end. Could be quite soon or could be notably longer. I would guess that it will end when our owner Ryan feels that the time has passed to entice in Christmas gift money that customers received. It wouldn't surprise me as well if some items go off sale sooner whilst others remain. No satisfying answers for your question yet I'm afraid. Thanks for asking. I received my Mac Bible chopper yesterday, and it's awesome!
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Jash
Member
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum!"
Posts: 297
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Post by Jash on Jan 8, 2020 1:19:02 GMT
Matt - appreciate the insight as well. Plus I had a little chat over the phone with Kay from KOA. Today I finally finalized my layaway order. But thanks to the bad influence of you fine people, I added a Munitions Grade Arbedo to the final order lol. I was eyeing it for $140, but waited too long. The $100 one was too good to pass up. Fingers crossed my first Munitions Grade sword turns out to be within my expectations Due to time - I canceled sharpening on all the swords in that order. So instead, I picked up the Deepeeka Munitions Grade Celtic sword for $61. With 2 Balaur swords, 2 Deepeeka swords, and the Arbedo - I guess 2020 is the year I learn how to put an edge on a sword haha. Thats quite the haul for an all-in-one go! Hope everything is up to your expectations as well. As I mentioned in other posts there is a bit of a gambling element with munitions grade items. Many of them actually look normal and fine until you start looking down the blade with the intention of spotting problems and thats when things like wavy blade edges, an asymmetric grind near the tip, blade twist or a moderate to medium crescent bend in the blade are noticeable. Some are more immediately apparent even before looking down the blade like a notably asymmetric crossguard, but still not so bad as to be relegated to a blowout. Since most customers can't come here personally to pick them out for themselves the low price is the "take a chance button" for an item landing on the mild to medium grade flaws. But thankfully you don't have to worry about that "take a chance" resulting in something structurally defective or woefully misshapen on a more severe level when compared to more common and less severe flaws. Also - if need be you can return munitions grade items if you don't like them under the standard 45-day return policy. ...plus 3 eBay sword finds. Picking all up on a quick USA roadtrip. Canadian customs will be interesting on the way back haha. Thank you for the detailed information. Honestly, I do not mind minor imperfections in a sword. I actually prefer the "hand made" look.
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Jash
Member
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum!"
Posts: 297
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Post by Jash on Jan 21, 2020 6:57:54 GMT
So thought i'd share my first experience with KOA Munitions Grade items: KOA was very easy to work with considering my weird travel schedule lately. I had an order of 7 items on layaway, it shipped out Jan 8th, arrived at the destination Jan 10th, I picked it up Jan 17th. (You'll see why I added the dates further down). Of the 7 items, 1 sword is still on backorder, 2 were non bladed items, leaving 4 swords: 1) Balaur Arms Italian Longsword Factory 2nd: - I think the description on KOA's webpage is a good representation of what to expect from these Factory 2nd's. My blade was slightly twisted (probably starting at 1/3 to 1/2 from the tip). It's not that bad to be honest, only notice it if you're looking for it. The guard is a little off center to the middle of the blade. The scabbard does not hold the sword in very tight, however, the scabbard leather is fantastic. Definitely softer and more textured than the swords below. I can see why so many people love this sword - it is very well balanced. The leather work on the handle is pretty much perfect on mine. Love the pommel design. The only issue I had (unexpected that is), is that there was some light oxidation on the pommel... 2) Balaur Arms Teutonic Arming Sword Factory 2nd: - The scabbard holds the blade in perfectly. The main issues on this example: the pommel is off alignment from the guard, and the blade twist is quite noticeable - not terrible, just fairly evident if one looks down the blade. I think the biggest issue for me is that hilt furniture isn't well finished, it actually cut my cleaning cloth haha Again, the leather work on the handle is fantastic. The peen is acceptable in a sword at this price range (sub $300). Honestly, I might prefer this sword over the Italian. I just find the overall feel and balance superb for a blade of this size. Again, the only unexpected issue is there was also light oxidation on the pommel... 3) Windlass Arbedo Munitions Grade: - I was about to purchase the new version for $140, but took too long deciding and it went up to $160. So figured i'd give the $100 MG version a chance, and boy am I happy. If there is any blade twist, it's so minimal I can only see it half the time I'm looking for it. Almost no signs of hammer marks / waves Everything on it seems to be tight and well aligned except for the pommel, which is a little crooked. If this is the only issue, I think it's a steal for $100! Again.... there was some slight oxidation on the pommel... 4) Deepeeka Wood Hilt Celtic Sword ("La Tene") Munitions Grade: - This is my first Deepeeka sword. I already knew to have lower expectations for Deepeeka, and that was before considering one of the munitions grade pieces. I've wanted to broaden my collection (no Celtic weapons yet), and was intrigued by this example. I had to cancel sharpening on the 3 swords above due to time - so that alone paid for this sword. So it wouldn't be the end of the world if I was not happy. The sword itself is a nice overall package. A full metal, historically accurate scabbard alone is a great touch. Of course, it is a little rough - you can feel the dips and rough finish in some places. The blade is slightly warped to one side (expected for MG). My biggest issue on this piece, is the handle is a little loose. Well not loose, but rattles a little when swung in certain angles. The blade seems fine and well anchored, but the handle seems to be hitting on something. I do not intend to cut with this sword, so I think for $60 it makes a nice historical wall hanger lol. So... that slight oxidation. It caught me off guard. I gave it a good clean with some G96 gun oil which managed to get rid off 90% of the marks. I ordered some Scotch-Brite pads for the remainder. I've never used them before, so a little excited to see how well they work. Overall i'm happy with these swords. I'm slowly getting into Medieval blades, and I think these are a good budget friendly start - $100 plus tax, until I find what type I like
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