pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 16, 2019 18:08:41 GMT
I had a steel list stashed somewhere that I believed said differently that I cannot find. So let’s assume for the sake of argument that EN9=1055 and say that Universal did an unsatisfactory job of hardening. The P1796 sword that I have of theirs does not hold an edge worth a flip. It has not rolled, dented, or taken a set, much less chipped. However after a cutting session it needs sharpening. The last outing with it I did no cutting only two thrusts on a Plax bottle and the edge was noticeably duller afterwards, but still something to reckon with. I have not attempted to sharpen my Princess of Wales as I don’t trust the steel so enjoy the sword as is. KoA has deleted their reviews but I remember several people complained about the soft metals, one saying that the scabbard was softer the soft blade. I see that Universal is slowly replacing their line with 1055 and 1065. The M1902 from them is of 1065. I sharpened on receipt over a month ago and will still slice paper after the work outs I’ve given it.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 16, 2019 18:13:36 GMT
I had a steel list stashed somewhere that I believed said differently that I cannot find. So let’s assume for the sake of argument that EN9=1055 and say that Universal did an unsatisfactory job of hardening. The P1796 sword that I have of theirs does not hold an edge worth a flip. It has not rolled, dented, or taken a set, much less chipped. However after a cutting session it needs sharpening. The last outing with it I did no cutting only two thrusts on a Plax bottle and the edge was noticeably duller afterwards, but still something to reckon with. I have not attempted to sharpen my Princess of Wales as I don’t trust the steel so enjoy the sword as is. KoA has deleted their reviews but I remember several people complained about the soft metals, one saying that the scabbard was softer the soft blade. I see that Universal is slowly replacing their line with 1055 and 1065. The M1902 from them is of 1065. I sharpened on receipt over a month ago and will still slice paper after the work outs I’ve given it. I am not questioning your contention that that was your experience. Nor am I a metallurgist or sword smith but it sounds to me that the issue may be the heat treat more than the slight variation in the amount of carbon in the steel.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 16, 2019 18:31:39 GMT
I had a steel list stashed somewhere that I believed said differently that I cannot find. So let’s assume for the sake of argument that EN9=1055 and say that Universal did an unsatisfactory job of hardening. The P1796 sword that I have of theirs does not hold an edge worth a flip. It has not rolled, dented, or taken a set, much less chipped. However after a cutting session it needs sharpening. The last outing with it I did no cutting only two thrusts on a Plax bottle and the edge was noticeably duller afterwards, but still something to reckon with. I have not attempted to sharpen my Princess of Wales as I don’t trust the steel so enjoy the sword as is. KoA has deleted their reviews but I remember several people complained about the soft metals, one saying that the scabbard was softer the soft blade. I see that Universal is slowly replacing their line with 1055 and 1065. The M1902 from them is of 1065. I sharpened on receipt over a month ago and will still slice paper after the work outs I’ve given it. I am not questioning your contention that that was your experience. Nor am I a metallurgist or sword smith but it sounds to me that the issue may be the heat treat more than the slight variation in the amount of carbon in the steel. That could be, I’ve considered that. However, I’ve decided not to buy another EN9 blade, based on personal experience and from the reviews I’ve read on KoA. Whether the issue is with their heat treating or the metal itself I choose not to buy another Universal EN9 blade. I have not found a problem with their 1065 so far. I could sharpen the PoW out of curiosity but that’s much work with no real objective. I routinely check out KoA’s Universal page hoping to find a P1796 of 1055 or 1065 steel as I like that sword and would buy another although I think Windlass’ M1840 NCO sword will out handle it.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 16, 2019 18:40:42 GMT
I am not questioning your contention that that was your experience. Nor am I a metallurgist or sword smith but it sounds to me that the issue may be the heat treat more than the slight variation in the amount of carbon in the steel. That could be, I’ve considered that. However, I’ve decided not to buy another EN9 blade, based on personal experience and from the reviews I’ve read on KoA. Whether the issue is with their heat treating or the metal itself I choose not to buy another Universal EN9 blade. I have not found a problem with their 1065 so far. I could sharpen the PoW out of curiosity but that’s much work with no real objective. I routinely check out KoA’s Universal page hoping to find a P1796 of 1055 or 1065 steel as I like that sword and would buy another although I think Windlass’ M1840 NCO sword will out handle it. I was told by KOA this morning that by next year all of KOA's Universal offerings will be 1055 / 1065.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 16, 2019 22:36:43 GMT
That could be, I’ve considered that. However, I’ve decided not to buy another EN9 blade, based on personal experience and from the reviews I’ve read on KoA. Whether the issue is with their heat treating or the metal itself I choose not to buy another Universal EN9 blade. I have not found a problem with their 1065 so far. I could sharpen the PoW out of curiosity but that’s much work with no real objective. I routinely check out KoA’s Universal page hoping to find a P1796 of 1055 or 1065 steel as I like that sword and would buy another although I think Windlass’ M1840 NCO sword will out handle it. I was told by KOA this morning that by next year all of KOA's Universal offerings will be 1055 / 1065. Thank you kindly for that news, I hadn’t heard. I won’t order another PoW as cavalry sabres are not for me but I would like to try the P1796 again. That Princess of Wales is an impressive thing. The wood to metal fit is perfect and the sabre itself has very nice lines and well put together. The scabbard impresses me greatly with its leather wrapped wood core (my favourite) and the metal overwrap really makes it a quality thing.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 17, 2019 2:46:14 GMT
I was told by KOA this morning that by next year all of KOA's Universal offerings will be 1055 / 1065. Thank you kindly for that news, I hadn’t heard. I won’t order another PoW as cavalry sabres are not for me but I would like to try the P1796 again. That Princess of Wales is an impressive thing. The wood to metal fit is perfect and the sabre itself has very nice lines and well put together. The scabbard impresses me greatly with its leather wrapped wood core (my favourite) and the metal overwrap really makes it a quality thing. I learned about all this researching EN9 steel...never heard of it before and I just ordered and got the last in stock "Admiral Nelson's Fighting Spadroon". I am a big fan of the Horatio Hornblower and the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey-Maturin books / movies / series and decided to get one for display on the wall along with my own US Navy officers sword that I had while serving. I really am not worried about edge retention although I did order the blade sharpened by KoA.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 17, 2019 3:14:43 GMT
I learned about all this researching EN9 steel...never heard of it before and I just ordered and got the last in stock "Admiral Nelson's Fighting Spadroon". I am a big fan of the Horatio Hornblower and the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey-Maturin books / movies / series and decided to get one for display on the wall along with my own US Navy officers sword that I had while serving. I really am not worried about edge retention although I did order the blade sharpened by KoA. I like spadroons, hence the M1840 and P1796. After you’ve had the sword long enough to form opinions I would like to hear them. Universal makes attractive swords regarding fit and finish from my experience. I have the highest respect for naval officers but no way am I willingly getting on a rocking ship. I have a touch of claustrophobia and am a terrible sailor. I don’t like airplanes either but the ride down made up for that. I was jump qualified.
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Post by wlewisiii on Dec 17, 2019 3:31:40 GMT
Tanks here. Give me my sabre and more dakka! I won't jump out of a perfectly good airplane and want only a couple of feet down to the ground rather than the thousands of feet down out at sea. That said, i want a good spadroon eventually.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 17, 2019 3:43:28 GMT
I learned about all this researching EN9 steel...never heard of it before and I just ordered and got the last in stock "Admiral Nelson's Fighting Spadroon". I am a big fan of the Horatio Hornblower and the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey-Maturin books / movies / series and decided to get one for display on the wall along with my own US Navy officers sword that I had while serving. I really am not worried about edge retention although I did order the blade sharpened by KoA. I like spadroons, hence the M1840 and P1796. After you’ve had the sword long enough to form opinions I would like to hear them. Universal makes attractive swords regarding fit and finish from my experience. I have the highest respect for naval officers but no way am I willingly getting on a rocking ship. I have a touch of claustrophobia and am a terrible sailor. I don’t like airplanes either but the ride down made up for that. I was jump qualified. I was a junior deck and operations officer after college. Had been sailing / racing since I was 10. I currently have a boat I race locally here in Southern California. I agree with you about airplanes.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 17, 2019 3:52:47 GMT
Tanks here. Give me my sabre and more dakka! I won't jump out of a perfectly good airplane and want only a couple of feet down to the ground rather than the thousands of feet down out at sea. That said, i want a good spadroon eventually. When I look at that naval spadroon on the wall it will remind me of Admiral Lord Nelson, the Battle of Trafalgar and all the greatness that was once the Royal navy and Britannia...back when "men were men..." lol The Universal Swords version looks almost spot on to Nelson's actual spadroon which is on display in London. Nelson had many swords, having received many; as honors for his great victories, captures from surrendered foe and gifts. I consider the 5 ball spadroon and the British Navy pattern 1805 sword to be the best of breed. PS: I also "collect" ( I have a few) AFV's
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Post by pgandy on Dec 17, 2019 13:55:50 GMT
wlewisiii “I won't jump out of a perfectly good airplane”. I don’t think I’ve seen one of those. Haha Lord Newport I just now figured out the significance of the name. I am a fan of Admiral Nelson also. Not so much because of his accomplishments as such, but to do so with all the ailments the man had. I cannot not remember the list now, which was long, although I remember sea sickness was amongst them, which I found surprising.
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Post by Lord Newport on Dec 17, 2019 17:14:20 GMT
wlewisiii “I won't jump out of a perfectly good airplane”. I don’t think I’ve seen one of those. Haha Lord Newport I just now figured out the significance of the name. I am a fan of Admiral Nelson also. Not so much because of his accomplishments as such, but to do so with all the ailments the man had. I cannot not remember the list now, which was long, although I remember sea sickness was amongst them, which I found surprising. It is a time in history and a life that I have romanticized in my mind and am a little obsessed with... ;-)
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Post by pgandy on Jan 31, 2020 18:01:08 GMT
This is the first of intended updates to impressions/reviews of swords that posted. I thought later thoughts after a period of use would be in order.
The M1902 is a fun sword and at the moment my most used. I still have doubts as to its effectiveness in a battlefield situation, it gives me the impression it’s for duelling. A cut to the face will probably more than leave its mark and send the receiver to the dentist if properly placed to put it mildly, but nothing like it’s big brother a M1860. I do find a thrust penetrates better than a M1860. The trade-off is handling.
The big thing is the hardness of the metal. I do not like Universal’s EN9 blades considering them too soft. I wasn’t sure if it was EN9, not up to par hardening, or both and eagerly waited for a 10xx steel blade from Universal and it came in form of 1065. It is definitely harder than my EN9 blades, but not as hard as I would like to have seen. But maybe I was expecting too much. This takes and holds an edge better. The best objective test, and it was accidental, that I have is comparing it to Windlass’s M1840 NCO sword which is also of 1065 steel. One day I decided to compare the two side by side and carried one in each hand in route to the cutting stand outside. As I was going through a congested area in the house the blades bumped each other. The true edge on the M1840 met the sharpened false edge of the M1902, not hard but hard enough. I immediately examined and saw no damage and continued outside after saying a few bad words and did some cutting and dry handling. Afterwards the sunlight picked reflected a pin point of light from the M1902’s false edge which was not involved in the cutting and was in the approximate location of the impact from the collision of the two swords earlier. I could not feel anything amiss with my fingers but my thumb nail said otherwise. This was very minor and would have had no noticed effect on cutting. On close scrutiny of the M1840 I found nothing out of line. So there, two pieces of the same type of steel with the same angle of grind colliding with the same force. The Windlass blade showed no ill effects even after a cutting session and the Universal’s 1065 showed very minor damage which would not have affected the blade. I have also resharpened the M1902 one time. It was still paper cutting sharp but the edge had begun to emit a sliver of light.
In summary, the Universal 1065 blade is harder than their old EN9 blades. While I wish it harder I’m satisfied to the point that they make three swords that are on the top of my list, only waiting on their availability with 10xx and hopefully with 1065 steel, if not higher. KoA lists only one in stock and all with EN9 steel. I’ve heard but not yet confirmed that this year KoA will be receiving only 10xx steel from Universal. Maybe finally.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 1, 2020 4:39:38 GMT
EN9 is more or less 1055 with a little bit of Si, not a bad steel. If there is a problem then it's the heat treatment the Universal forge does on their EN9 blades for whatever reason they have. Probably another steel will not be much better if they don't improve the heat treatment too.
Didn't you make the foible thinner? Is it possible you made the steel softer this way due to heating?
How does the 1902 compare to the USMC NCO in handling? Both blades look rather similar to me, light infantry sabers with good handling. To me the USMC looks better, I like the brass blingbling
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 1, 2020 5:39:49 GMT
Even windlass has gone soft with their temper in the past few years.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 1, 2020 6:22:06 GMT
Even windlass has gone soft with their temper in the past few years. Hey.. as long as its the right steel with a hamon... LMAO
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 1, 2020 14:39:15 GMT
EN9 is more or less 1055 with a little bit of Si, not a bad steel. If there is a problem then it's the heat treatment the Universal forge does on their EN9 blades for whatever reason they have. Probably another steel will not be much better if they don't improve the heat treatment too. Didn't you make the foible thinner? Is it possible you made the steel softer this way due to heating? How does the 1902 compare to the USMC NCO in handling? Both blades look rather similar to me, light infantry sabers with good handling. To me the USMC looks better, I like the brass blingbling I thinned the M1860 OM’s foible. I had considered the M1902 also but decided against for two reasons. The blade is so narrow in that region I thought it might be weakened too much. The second I felt no real gain would result as it handles great, penetrates sufficiently well, only a possible, I say possible improvement might be had in slicing by being thinner. But I feel the cutting is more limited to the swords weight and narrow blade. I have to go by memory when comparing cutting to the USMC NCO sword as that one is packed away. I’ve cut only a little with that one, not enough to make a valid comparison there. As for handling, and I’ve done that far more, the USMC takes the lead due to a more positive nature of a more secure, non-slip grip. Other than that they handle similar. Both swords have brass furniture, only the M1902 is nickel plated over the brass. Some will find that a virtue. I like the handling of both but in a tight my vote is with the USMC, not that I’d turn down the M1902, I like it. The USMC to me is not for back yard cutting as it has great sentimental value. It’s packed away in its cloth case with mothballs.
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Post by pgandy on Feb 1, 2020 14:44:56 GMT
Even windlass has gone soft with their temper in the past few years. Hey.. as long as its the right steel with a hamon... LMAO (rofl) I am more influenced by the HRC then the metal involved, that neither of these companies feel fit to publish. Hmm, a hamon on a Windlass? That will be the day. Hehe
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 1, 2020 18:31:02 GMT
Hey.. as long as its the right steel with a hamon... LMAO I am more influenced by the HRC then the metal involved, that neither of these companies feel fit to publish. Hmm, a hamon on a Windlass? That will be the day. Hehe I was being facetious as most of the crowd in this forum is so focused on hormon's fake or real...
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Post by pgandy on Feb 1, 2020 18:52:47 GMT
E How does the 1902 compare to the USMC NCO in handling? Both blades look rather similar to me, light infantry sabers with good handling. To me the USMC looks better, I like the brass blingbling Statistics of the M1902 compared to the USMC NCO sword M1902 USMC NCO OAL/in 37.375 37.375 Blade length/in 31.875 31.875 PoB/in 5½ 4.875 CoP/in 21 23.75 Blade Thickness/mm 6.4-3.9 6.5-2.6 Blade width/mm 20.4 21.6 Weight/lb oz 1 11½ 1 13.6 Grip/in 4 3.75 You got me to thinking so I compared the M1902 and USMC side by side save cutting. I don’t know which is the better in that case as the targets I gave the USMC some time ago did not approach its limits. Both handle the same targets equally as well. The USMC is more handicapped due to only 13.375” of the blade is sharpened compared to 16” on the M1902. In both cases the blade decoration dictated the length. Nor did I do a penetration test with the USMC but suspect that it will pass my rug test, perhaps better than the M1902 which squeaked through. The blade on the M1902 is more curved, only slightly straighter than on the M1860 OM, but has a spear point. The USMC is straighter and feels more orientated to a thrust than the M1902, but has an asymmetrical tip. The geometry of the M1902 makes it better for what I call the upper cut using point. As for general handling, they are about the same although the USMC I find superior as I find it feeling more solid in the hand due in part to the hilt, but nevertheless. The scabbard of the USMC is leather and not as hard on a keen edge as the M1902’s steel scabbard which forces me to tape the cutting edge before returning. I don’t think the USMC will torque on a cut. The M1902 did when I was cutting early on but lately have not experienced that. I think because I am cutting more with the tip. I think that when the blade made contact nearer the hilt it left the tip trailing farther behind and the tip tried to pass the rest of the sword resulting in the sword torqueing, the Brits reference “twisting” but I think we are talking the same phenomenon. I did not come across that in reading “Swordsmen of the British Empire”. But in “British Sword Fighting 1600-1945”, same author, it’s mentioned several times referencing the British sabre (models not disclosed) as opposed the curved swords the Indians used which did not present this phenomenon. They must have been using more of the tip that the tulwars and scimitars of the blade that those swords are noted for? And also they did not try to power through as the Brits did with their dull blades. I hope this answers your questions.
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