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Post by elbrittania39 on Aug 26, 2019 5:27:19 GMT
I'm starting to lose faith in the protective value offered by a lone knucklebow. I've been sparring with a sabre for the last couple months consisting of a crossguard and knucklebow.
Now the cross is great, when I bind and my opponent slides down my blade, they get stopped on my guard.
But the knuckle bow hardly ever stops a cut. Since my hand protrudes from either side, many cuts aimed at my hand will strike me as if the guard wasn't there. Even cuts that do hit the knuckle bow tend to be at an angle where they hit both the bow and my hand.
Don't get me wrong, I think if you're gonna have a complex hilt, you probably want a knucklebow somewhere in there, but as a standalone, it doesn't seem to have much advantage over a crossguard.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 26, 2019 5:50:04 GMT
I had the same issue until I realized the knucklebow is only effective if you use it actively.
You have to make an active effort to parry blows with and of course you shouldn't be relying on the guard alone either. Turning the edge towards the blow or slightly at an angle towards it I have found gives you far greater protection with the knucklebow than using it like a bowl or bar hilt.
You can get used to it and start doing it subconsciously, I practically only used a knucklebow sabre until I moved onto steel and a bowl/bar hilt.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Aug 26, 2019 6:06:34 GMT
I agree with you. I would extend that to the crossguard as well since opponent can still slide down at an angle.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 26, 2019 7:11:40 GMT
My philosophy of knucklebows is that if my opponent is depending on their knucklebow to protect their hand, I can hit them in the hand.
It's a second level of protection for those times when your primary protection - getting out of the way, preferably while counter-cutting - goes wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 10:14:15 GMT
I've mentioned before (and not meant as a must do, I'll shrug this denial off sgain), thumb to the side (ie to the flat) and bow (and to an extent basket) on the inside. Also, not to forget that the target is not the opponent's weapon. What ever GC
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Post by leviathansteak on Aug 26, 2019 10:28:02 GMT
I do sidesword and not all of them have knucklebows, so i treat them as a luxury.
A single bar knucklebow is not perfect but it is better than nothing, i try to catch blades on my forte and the knucklebow is just insurance in case i mess up my parry.
You'll have to turn the hand to the correct angle for your knucklebow to work. If its any comfort, i imagine a sword hitting your knucklebow and clipping your hand might not cut as deeply as it would if it landed straight on the hand. Would probably still disable the hand though.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 26, 2019 14:22:22 GMT
You are now experiencing what didn’t happen back then. The military after adopting the knuckle bow in the late 18th century progressively improved on it resulting in the bowl guard about the turn of the 20th century. In essence you are reliving history. Collectively you’ve been offered some good advice. As you seem to prefer swords from that period with the knuckle bow I suggest that you consider Epic’s Rondel Hand Protection if you want more protection. KoA sells them in the white or blackened. They are not expensive and worth every penny. I thought that I had some photos with a knuckle bow but cannot find them. So I substituted a medieval sword. However they are shown with a M1840 NCO sword review. Immediately below the M1840 photos, probably of no importance to you, but a move to show their effectiveness where I catch a machete with my forte, stepping to the outside and rolling the machete off the back of my hand thanks to the Rondel opening up several options. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/56791/windlass-new-m1840-sword-5000836
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Aug 26, 2019 17:03:25 GMT
Nice glove you got there Pgandy!!
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Post by elbrittania39 on Aug 26, 2019 18:51:29 GMT
Yeah I wear good heavy sparring gloves for safety, but in a hema context, a hits a hit if my guard didn't stop it.
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Post by wlewisiii on Aug 26, 2019 19:15:41 GMT
The development of the saber - both physically and in the system of fence - followed the path it did for real reasons. The three bar, shell and basket hilts all provide significantly better protection than the simple knuckle bow. This is similar to the changes is fencing seen from the 16th century Hungarian style your recent video showed as opposed to modern systems of Roworth and forward- the cuts remain the same but the basic pose, the guards and much else has changed.
People had trouble with losing fingers because the knuckle bow didn't protect well enough. Hence the weight of the better protection of the three bar was accepted. By the end of the era, a big shell had become typical and had swords remained viable, I'd argue the basket hilt would have been the logical outcome.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 26, 2019 19:34:51 GMT
Yeah I wear good heavy sparring gloves for safety, but in a hema context, a hits a hit if my guard didn't stop it. The Rondel will reduce drastically the number of felt strikes you receive, or is that prohibited with HEMA? The Rondel Hand Protector works, not expensive, and comfortable. I had a typo in the first line of my previous post reversing the meaning of the sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 19:57:20 GMT
A couple of more notes, possibly of use. Sniping at hands is fair play but at the same time, so is learning not to get your hand(s) in the way. This goes back to cruciform guard play where no bow was employed.
Thoughts from the HEMA guys have been posted as videos on the subject of hand hits and how to counter/better defend. Blocking and binding with a sabre quite often towards the edges. If your opponents blade is skating past the guard onto your knuckles, if the knuckle bow was turned in, the bow catches and deflects the opponent's blade. Gripping a sword need not be static but a sabre grip with the thumb inside, or hammer, lets one rotate pretty quickly. Whereas if you are couching the butt end with a thumb on the backstrap, you are dedicating a thrust (which you know will be easily parried away).
Dussack play
Note turning of the wrist when guarding
Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 22:19:25 GMT
Here is a good one with Nick (mr spadroon himself) bouting sabre.
What I am getting at re rotating the grip initially for spadroon and especially smallsword is starting/gripping with the stirrup inboard. Thumb and forefinger (first joint) to the flats/sides. Nick's approach sabre is opposite that but note the amount of time he spends rotating the hilt inboard. Also note he gets hit on his hand when if it had been inboard, the guard would have blocked Esther's blow.
There are some pretty wild Russian sabre groups with videos that will show these same transitions.
Cheers GC GC
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Post by Uhlan on Aug 27, 2019 4:43:59 GMT
Yesterday I read another article about protesting Prussian Ulahns after the Danish-Prussian war in the 1840's. It turned out that the majority of wounds recieved by the Ulahns were to the right hand they said. They demanded another sabre and got the basket hilt M1852, which they turned down innitialy because all other Cavalry branches got it too. They saw the M1852 as an affront to their elite status and in the end got the Ulahn sabre 0f 1870, which was just as before. No basket, just the knuckle bow. Goes to show that even professionals didn't always know how to handle their sabres in the heat of combat with, as I read it, an enemy probably instructed to go for the unprotected hand. Or so the story goes which may just smoke and mirrors. It seems strange to me that it took so long before a basket hilt sabre was introduced but tradition plays a very large part here I think. German states, Prussians, always had the simple hilted hussar style sabres and no mention is made in the article there were problems with it before. And now after say 200 years of learning the ins and outs of the Hussar style sabre suddenly the Ulahns of all people start moaning. Something is not right here. This has the stench of politics all over it.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Aug 27, 2019 5:08:34 GMT
I always kinda wondered why armored gloves weren't more popular for cavalry units in the 17-1800s. Throwing your light cavalry some padded, mail backed leather gloves seems like it would go a long way. Although I think I've heard that mentioned in the context of British officers serving in India? Don't quote me on that.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 27, 2019 18:52:05 GMT
I do believe much of your problem lies with the way you parry. Reviewing your “Introduction to Hungarian Hussar Sabre” video again you not only show but state “parry with wrist up” and “you should have the back or the hand up”. Oh my! The bow should be facing the incoming blade.
At mark 10:30 in the video is a good casing point. A #1 cut is coming in. Using the siggital plane pivot facing the in coming blade while raising your sword. That much is correct. But don’t let your tip fall off to your right exposing your wrist. NO,NO. Let your tip fall forward, in other words extend your angle forward as Jordan is saying, and I said in a PM. This will have several advantages, but for the moment let’s stick with presenting your bow to the incoming, not your wrist. Remember to keep the skeleton bones in the arm in line. In part keeping your elbow against the ribs as you are saying will aid in alignment but feel free to extend forward from there. By extending the tip most likely your opponent’s blade will slide down your true edge dissipating the energy over a wider area. And of course bring the forte into action here. At the most the incoming blade won’t go farther than your lower quillon. And if you are lucky enough for it to go that far it will open a number of opportunities for you.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 25, 2019 6:30:46 GMT
Alright, so I've been fencing a lot of sabre with a simple D guard. I have found that I don't get hit in the hand as much as I used to, but it defintely requires more thought put into a parry. It does defintely protect the line to the forearm, if you practice wrist turning enough to be quick enough to disengage and feint cuts.
One thing as well to worry for with no top plate, is snipes to the top of the hand or wrist, but that's easy enough to counter, similar to longsword.
Of course, my 5 bar sabre hilt is still my preferred.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Oct 13, 2019 13:57:27 GMT
Since starting escrima in earnest, I put much less importance on them. I'd still choose a basket or a bowl for a sword fight, but realistically a small cross or disc is enough for a tactical sword.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 13, 2019 17:00:34 GMT
Nice glove you got there Pgandy!! Thanks. To tell the truth these are better for protection, just didn’t feel like digging them out at the time. And my thought was basically on the Rondel. They sort of fit in with Elbrittania39’s thinking on mail gloves. The Rondel will protect against fractures while the mail guards against lacerations. The rondels are cheap enough, the mail gauntlet a bit more. I prefer a bowl or basket hilt but do not feel handicapped with a bow. Attachments:
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 13, 2019 21:27:26 GMT
I might pick one of those little hand buckler up for rapier fencing in the SCA. It seems like it is a great tool to protect the top of back of hand. I do wish HEMA would allow for more variety of weapons in that regard. Fenced a total of 7 different off hand items this weekend and each was a new challenge.
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