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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 31, 2019 6:47:59 GMT
If I understand you correctly, you posit that a parry should be made by placing your flat in the path of their flat, or junction of flat and spine? Your edge, their flat. Depending on the attack, this can be done if different ways. It can be a forceful cut into the flat of their sword. It can be a fairly gently placement of your edge against their sword, and then pushing just far enough. It can (against a thrust) even start flat-against-flat following by turning your blade into the attack so that it becomes edge-against-flat. IMO, parrying with your edge is stronger. This is important if receiving a forceful blow. Less important if receiving a thrust.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 31, 2019 7:11:40 GMT
If I understand you correctly, you posit that a parry should be made by placing your flat in the path of their flat, or junction of flat and spine? Your edge, their flat. Depending on the attack, this can be done if different ways. It can be a forceful cut into the flat of their sword. It can be a fairly gently placement of your edge against their sword, and then pushing just far enough. It can (against a thrust) even start flat-against-flat following by turning your blade into the attack so that it becomes edge-against-flat. IMO, parrying with your edge is stronger. This is important if receiving a forceful blow. Less important if receiving a thrust. Okay, I think I understand now, esp when you say thrusting though I will say from experience beginning the parry with the flat is a good way to get your wrist jabbed, at least in rapier or against well taught opponents. I haven't seen anyone actually use this technique so far, but I do see what you mean now. What manual is it from other than Le Marchants?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 8:12:18 GMT
I don't do sabre but i believe it is mostly edge on edge parries. Edge on edge is also very common in other systems such as longsword and sidesword. Sure your edge will get chewed up, but if minor it can be fixed. And if unfixable, then hey at least you defended your life and that takes priority over the sword. Also consider that you often parry with the strong or middle of the blade but cut with the weak. So even if your strong is chewed up it can still cut the other guy just fine. Dont say such a thing! Imagine a HEMA guy reads this... we would have to endure endless reminders that you are supposed to block with the FLAT! ;-) Seriously: i know some HEMA people here in Germany who also consider the flat-block thing... well... mislead, misinterpreted, to say it politely. As an Amateur, it just doesnt make sense to me, at least not in every blocking/parrying situation.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 31, 2019 8:25:18 GMT
I wish people who advocated blocking with the flat could provide evidence this actually mattered, not just theory. Every manual I've read either explicitly tells you to parry with the edge or just assumes you already know that. It seems like if the edge taking damage was an issue, fencing masters of old would make a point of bringing that up and explaining how to mitigate the problem. It's seems like if none or very few of them bring it up, it probably isn't worth us fretting over.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 8:51:04 GMT
I wish people who advocated blocking with the flat could provide evidence this actually mattered, not just theory. Every manual I've read either explicitly tells you to parry with the edge or just assumes you already know that. It seems like if the edge taking damage was an issue, fencing masters of old would make a point of bringing that up and explaining how to mitigate the problem. It's seems like if none or very few of them bring it up, it probably isn't worth us fretting over. You hear it all too often...
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 31, 2019 9:34:49 GMT
Your edge, their flat. Depending on the attack, this can be done if different ways. It can be a forceful cut into the flat of their sword. It can be a fairly gently placement of your edge against their sword, and then pushing just far enough. It can (against a thrust) even start flat-against-flat following by turning your blade into the attack so that it becomes edge-against-flat. IMO, parrying with your edge is stronger. This is important if receiving a forceful blow. Less important if receiving a thrust. Okay, I think I understand now, esp when you say thrusting though I will say from experience beginning the parry with the flat is a good way to get your wrist jabbed, at least in rapier or against well taught opponents. I wouldn't go out of my way to start with the flat. If the incoming blade is coming in close enough to mine so that it hasn't turned significantly before I make contact, the contact will be flat-on-flat. I haven't seen anyone actually use this technique so far, but I do see what you mean now. See the parries immediately after the linked times in the videos I first posted. Easier to see it in the Easton video, because he stops at the end of the parry. It's only minimally edge-vs-flat (his motion during the block/parry is mostly horizontal), but is IMO clearly not solid edge-vs-edge (see the final position of the blades after the block). An attack like the one he parries here is one of the hardest to parry edge-vs_flat. Parries/blocks like this are common in many sword systems. For good reason, since (a) parrying/blocking with your edge is biomechanically strong and takes advantage of the direction in which your blade is strongest, (b) it avoids your opponent's strongest axis, and (c) your opponent's sword isn't stopped as suddenly, so it takes less force to block. Done in some Chinese systems, some Filipino systems (e.g., Kalis Ilustrisimo), some Japanese systems, some Medieval European systems. It's in the sabre manuals. Often the text isn't explicit, but the illustrations show it clearly enough. See, e.g., the illustrations for inside guard and outside guard in Roworth, which show edge against flat. What manual is it from other than Le Marchants? Le Marchant says the opposite: to parry their edge with your flat. Explicitly to prevent edge damage. I don't know of anybody who pushes this apart from Le Marchant. The main parry/block with the flat that's common in many systems is where you receive an incoming blow on your flat, but with your blade at a steep angle so that the attacks slides along your blade, and that's (mostly) done for reasons other than protecting your edge.
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Post by Tiers1 on Mar 31, 2019 9:47:38 GMT
Thanks so much for the many impressive responses, which to me emphasize what has gradually been perhaps been a broad shift away from the old SFI days when people were so enamored with swords, particularly from certain makers, that they probably would have saved the sword instead of themselves...and towards a recognition of swords as martial tools that can and do break. As someone who grew up with a lot of RPG and sword movie stuff I had some ingrained fantastical notions of what swords could do for a long time; once I understood the realities of metallurgy and sharp edges, most of my interest in high dollar items ceased, because despite what in the past was (in my opinion) often intimated by many people on 'that' forum, even the finest and most expensive sword will be gouged and damaged by a sharpened sword of reasonable hardness...it seemed odd to me to focus so intently on price and status when that did not necessarily confer are longer lasting or better performing item. I know I read a comment with someone saying that at a certain point he too lost interest in the expensive weapons when martial training taught him they wouldn't necessarily fare any better than a reasonably made and balanced standard item. There was another interesting point as well about how gouges in the edge actually aren't that big of a deal, as unless there are many of them, the sword can still cut, and will leave nastier wounds...this would seem to be true, but I have heard that any large nick on a sword can create a stress in the blade that may or may not lead to blade failure?
Another really interesting point was made in the thread- and it is something I have seen come up a couple times only in the last few years...that without a very keen edge, swords struggle to cut through anything but very light clothing. A number of people have been really surprised by this, and I can understand why- nearly every fictional depiction of swordplay out there, nearly everything non-martial artists have ever been exposed to, shows the cut as an effective tool against many mediums. Without the cut to rely on, swords seem to be far less flexible as a general purpose weapon. This would seem to make sense given they were never primary battlefield weapons and from what I understand there is a distinct emphasis in swordplay on attacking wherever has no armor, face and fingers included. Then again there was another great point in the thread that even a disappointing small gash into a training dummy under a sweater might be decisive in a real fight.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 31, 2019 12:04:02 GMT
There are certainly a lot of mythos and misconceptions surrounding swords- what they can and cannot do. Hollywood lies to us, that much is clear and I think we can all agree on that concept.
Speaking only in practical terms and from what I've studied as sword fighting, it all boils down to to three kinds of hits: thrust or stabs, cuts, and slashes.
Thrusts and stabs are self explanatory. Run somebody through the gut or chest with a sharp hunk of steel and the fight is clearly over.
Cuts and slashes need more explanation. Granted, different swords use different fighting systems and terminology, so what I say comes from my learning experience. Also, since all swords are more or less the same, and human physiology is more or less the same, you will see lots of similarities from diverse sword designs just because of the limitations of the laws of physics and human motion. As it was taught to me, a cut is a removal of a body part such as a head or hand, whereas a slash is the cutting open of the body either through skin,muscle or internal organs but does not chop something off.
With that in mind, I was taught to go for the cut because it's clearly a decisive move. An opponent cannot continue fighting if they are missing their hand or head. This is what Hollywood would have us believe to be the only effective way to kill with a sword other than stabbing. This is not true. Think. Think. Think. There is another thread discussing how members have been cut by their own swords. Read it. Most of those cuts were only a few millimeters deep, but some required medical care. Think. Think. Think. Now look at your own body. How far is it from the top layer of your skin to your small intestine? Of course that number varies from person to person, but on a healthy normal weight human, it's about 10-20mm. That's 1/2 to 3/4" to us Americans. So how deep does a slash from a sword have to be to open you up like a Thanksgiving turkey? Not much at all. We are talking death in less than 5 to 10 mm of sword penetration.
Even a minor slash will cause pain, bleeding, nerve damage, etc. A slash to the wrist, even with a chipped edge sword, will cut to the bone and render the hand useless and inflict immediate crippling pain. Same with a cut to the thigh, back of the knee, upper arm, etc. It doesn't take much, imagine an awkward diving swing to your arm that misses a good cutting angle, but clumsily slides down your arm from shoulder to elbow taking off 4mm thick layer of skin in the process. I can't answer for anybody else, but as for me, having my upper arm skin peeled off from shoulder to elbow will be the end of me as far as that fight is concerned.
My training focuses on cutting, blocking, parrying, and slashing. It's all a means to an end, and it's all designed to maximize the effectiveness of the sword. I've been taught to use the sword either to cut, or to give the "death by a thousand cuts" by slashing wherever the opportunity presents. Even a minor slash will bleed profusely, if it doesn't incapacitate the opponent right away, they will eventually pass out from blood loss if they continue fighting.
These are all discussion of tactical employment and combat philosophies. No doubt others who have studied their particular sword styles will disagree with me on some of the things I've said, and that is fine. As long as what you are doing works and you are comfortable and confident in doing it, then that is the correct style for you to use.
Good question, btw!
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Post by pgandy on Mar 31, 2019 15:16:46 GMT
The best way to get an idea of what a sword will and will not do is to read “Swordsmen of the British Empire”. There is a sequel out “More on Swordsmen of the British Empire” (I think that’s the name) which is smaller version. For the most part the events are battle field related as opposed to one on one, although there are accounts of one on one. It seems to have been a code at one time for an officer to challenge an officer on the other side and the two would fight it out in front of their men without interference. I found it to be a fantastic book, 630 pages full of contemporary drawings and documented accounts.
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 31, 2019 21:17:22 GMT
From my personal experience, the edge to edge contact issue is generally overstated. Before we appreciated their significance, I used to play fight with the antique military swords my grandfather kept on display in the hunting lodge at our family ranch. These were old European sabres and infantry swords, and my siblings and cousins would play at fighting with them when our parents were otherwise disposed. All those years of banging them edge against edge made almost no visible impact. Of course we weren't adults using adrenaline fueled strength, but we did this for almost a decade, and we certainly weren't gentle or considerate.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Apr 2, 2019 2:02:37 GMT
pgandy I found today a t - shirt will not protect against a sword. imgur.com/a/xPR3MjuSword was a 30.75" blade by about 1 inch at its cutting point. Linear taper, quite stiff. I think your 1860 COS might have similar results as the cross section are similar, though the COS has more fat in the foible.
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Post by pgandy on Apr 2, 2019 12:38:34 GMT
pgandy I found today a t - shirt will not protect against a sword. imgur.com/a/xPR3MjuSword was a 30.75" blade by about 1 inch at its cutting point. Linear taper, quite stiff. I think your 1860 COS might have similar results as the cross section are similar, though the COS has more fat in the foible. Thanks. Just this past weekend I had planned to make a similar test then aborted. For clarity, I did not mean that I knit shirt would protect against a cut but was more resistant to one. The test I was planning was to very similar to the one in your subject except a top knit shirt as well. I had predicted a nasty slice to the jug going nearly through, while I could have completely severed the jug without a shirt. The tests that I did do in the past involved a sword cane and throwing stars. With the stars using cardboard as a backstop; They would completely penetrate broadcloth, cutting it, and stick into the cardboard. With knit they refused to hole the clothe other than a pin hole before falling to the ground. However this did not make the wearer immune. What would happen is that the star would push the knit, it stretching, into the hole the star made. At which point the knit would stop stretching and spring back pulling the star out. The star left a hole in the cardboard of about the expected size. With sword I tested with CS HDSC as this is the only sword cane blade that will come close to cutting, the others will at best make superficial cuts that are really no more than bad scratches. These blades are made for thrusting except the HDSC which is advertised to have cutting abilities and everyone doing a YouTube review would demonstrate this. All used the usual naked targets, not what one could expect to come up against in the street. That is all well and good but in truth not all that practical. In a melee it will work better than other similar blades, mainly using it as a clearing stroke. To begin with everyone, including me, to make the blade cut will draw the blade back prior to the swing in order to get the power and thereby exposing themselves completely. I then out of curiosity start putting clothe over the bottles, can’t remember if I used a jug, and immediately only with one layer of knit the cut was reduced. One layer of knit would represent the very minimum one could expect to encounter in the street and from there with each additional layer the cut was reduced more. There was no problem in achieving penetration with point no matter what sword cane/umbrella I used and they are all faster than the HDCS and better balanced. I by no means intended to mean that a T shirt would protect one, only to offer more resistance. And assuming it would protect against a cut there is the blunt force to deal with, clavicles, forearms, and ribs would all be subjected to fractures. Mail over my light gambeson would not save me in that case.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 2, 2019 13:23:00 GMT
I'm not convinced of the "protection" you could get from a sword blow by merely wearing a cloth shirt. I do agree that it adds resistance to the cutting action, but it doesn't stop it. From my own anecdotal experiences and from various demos and YouTube vids I have come to the conclusion that basic street clothing isn't very good armor. Because even though it reduces the penetration of a cut, it still goes through. Not as deep, but deep enough to cause major problems. Perhaps in the winter with multiple layers and a canvas overcoat (which is basically what a gambeson is), yes, that might do it. But by and large I wouldn't trust my life to it.
As has been stated before on this thread, a thrust will go through no problem whatsoever. I never cease to amaze myself how well a sword can poke a hole in something. Especially when you don't want it to. Like my shoes. Or my new pants...
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Apr 2, 2019 13:50:08 GMT
Sword meets bottle wrapped in a couple of layers of sleeping bag:
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Post by pgandy on Apr 2, 2019 14:29:41 GMT
I am not saying clothing will protect one, I am saying cloth will give a surprising amount of protection. And against what seems to be overlooked. Skalligrim had a video also showing this with loose fitting street clothing against a variety of weapons that would be encountered in the street. A sword cane’s blade designed for civilian use in the street will not have the same effect on a given piece of clothing as a war blade. The material, design of the garment, fit of the garment and against what will all have different results. If I should come up against a mugger in the street, and judging from what I’ve seen recently captured on cameras, will be wearing a hooded sweatshirt over let’s say only a shirt, as ticos don’t normally wear two shirts, I think if I gave a cutting blow with my sword cane would not seriously injure him. Whereas if I scored with a war sword he would have a problem. I suspect he would be cut, but not as serious as not wearing the sweatshirt, at any rate he would very likely have additional injuries. As Matt Easton would say “context”.
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Post by markus313 on Apr 2, 2019 14:42:27 GMT
Just to throw that in here... Sharp or not (some sword blades looked more like a saw than anything after some use – not talking about Flamberges), sword cuts need to be hard to be of effect (against a motivated opponent - unless you hit a major blood vessel, perhaps; still a matter of time then to take the fight out). Only a strong blow will cut through bone and cartilage, damaging underlying nerves and tendons etc.
On the protection through clothing/textiles… A well-landed blow (a moderately sharp edge is sufficient - a finely honed edge is best for cutting, of course) has little problems penetrating even multiple layers of tough clothing. What is often overlooked is the cushioning effect of loosely worn, multiple layers of clothing. Probably one reason the Landsknechte where so fond of their outfits.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 2, 2019 15:51:19 GMT
I think the main problem with this discussion is that there aren't enough sword fights happening nowadays to get some "real world" data on effects vs. types of clothing. Perhaps we should all start carrying our blades and get offended at every little thing so we can duel?
Outside of collecting data from actual fights, we are left with conjecture gathered from anecdotal evidence. Still, it's fun to explore the "what ifs".
Yes, context is everything. What happens more often than not is that we want specific answers to exacting situations. In the real world, a knife, gun, or sword fight will never go the way you think it will, and it will never involve the equipment/combatants/situation that was planned for. I have a friend who is a real believer in putting a high powered light on his rifle with the idea that if he gets into a situation he can turn the light on and disorient the opponent. I asked him "what if you turn the light on and your opponent simply panics and empties his own magazine in the direction of the light?" It will never go the way you think it will because a scenario like that requires everybody to react in a certain way to a specific set of circumstances.
Same with clothing vs. blades. It depends on the size of the blade (knife vs. sword vs. axe, etc), thickness of the clothing, type of material of the cloth, angle of the cut, strength of the hit, etc. With all things being equal, one hit could slice through, a second hit may do nothing at all. You won't really know for sure until the SHTF. But it's all good, because if you can't cut through a goon's jacket, you could always end him rightly...
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Post by pgandy on Apr 2, 2019 19:21:30 GMT
Markus That’s a good video and he repeats some things I mentioned before such as “loose fitting street clothing ”. Red You’re right, there’s not enough information available. “Swordsmen of the British Empire” has more accounts than I’ve found in any one place. And there are so many variables it is impossible to know the outcome. I’ve read accounts of people getting run through at the heart and dropping and others will continue to fight, for a short period. On the other hand I’ve read of people receiving multiple cuts, one case of 13 sticks out in my mind and survived. There are multiple instances in the above book. As for the old argument cut vs thrust, I think in the bygone days there was more of a difference that tilted the statistics. Now with doctors having more knowledge of the internal parts and with the antibiotics the survival rate should be better. Personally from my experience I think that I’d have a better chance of getting through giving point than a cut although I am aware that an actual cut may not be all that necessary, getting hit with 2½’ chunk of steel weighing 2 lbs and up will have its effect. I have an unsharpened Princess of Wales and I really wouldn’t feel that handicapped using it, though I’d rather have a sharpened blade. Below is a series of photos I just took showing the difference a couple of knit shirts can make. In my previous posts as in the photos I am speaking relativity and not absolutes. When I say a knit shirt has some protection I mean just that “some protection” not that it will save one from a battle grade weapon but will in some cases lessen the injury depending. To show my point I used a bowie knife as opposed to say a M1860 sabre to limit the expected damage and get my point across. The targets were two, one litre orange juice bottles, one with no protection to show the capability of the bowie and the second with a knit T shirt and I knit top shirt. The T shirt was old but unworn with the original sizing making it a little thicker than my everyday shirts. They were draped over bottle in a moderate fashion. I delivered one cut knocking the bottle off of the board. The damage wasn’t that severe, I doubt life threatening, but would require medical attention. Neither of the shirts was holed. With point I could have run it through, in fact I did in a similar case when reviewing Windlass’ M1840 NCO Sword.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 2, 2019 22:22:29 GMT
I am reminded of a cut I got years ago. I was working on a car wearing latex gloves. After a while, my right glove felt a bit loose on my hand, and when I examined it, it was filled and swollen with some kind of liquid. I took the glove off and there was a great splash of blood! Apparently, I had cut the palm of my hand through the glove without cutting the glove and it filled with blood from the wound.
That was a good 25 years ago, give or take. To this day, I have no clue how I could have cut my hand and not cut the glove in the process. Apparently, the glove gave no protection whatsoever even though it wasn't damaged itself.
More anecdotal evidence that confirms or denies nothing, but makes for a good story.
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Apr 4, 2019 0:19:54 GMT
I am reminded of a cut I got years ago. I was working on a car wearing latex gloves. After a while, my right glove felt a bit loose on my hand, and when I examined it, it was filled and swollen with some kind of liquid. I took the glove off and there was a great splash of blood! Apparently, I had cut the palm of my hand through the glove without cutting the glove and it filled with blood from the wound. That was a good 25 years ago, give or take. To this day, I have no clue how I could have cut my hand and not cut the glove in the process. Apparently, the glove gave no protection whatsoever even though it wasn't damaged itself. More anecdotal evidence that confirms or denies nothing, but makes for a good story. Human tissue =/= latex. Blunt force can create an externally bleeding injury. Even the most supple of human skin does not have the elasticity or tensile strength of many common polymers.
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