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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 10:35:30 GMT
Ok...so with that out of the way... Anyone in the know to answer the query? You're not the only one Adam:D. If the company is using standard threaded rod, it won't really react well to the heat treatment for sword steel, as it's usually much too low in carbon or any other goodies to make it hardeneable to any degree. hardening makes things hard, but brittle, it is the temper that makes them tough.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 16:27:18 GMT
I got that part... this was the basis of my question, which is more about the tang than the threaded rod...
If the tang is left just annealed/soft, would not that cause it to bend/deform quite easily from the stresses of having a long blade at one end, and a relatively heavy pommel at the other?
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to put a really tough spring temper (sorry brenno, i tried 'heat treat', it just didn't sound right to me) on it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 17:35:58 GMT
I think I read somewhere that there are different schools of thought among custom smiths as to whether or not the tang should be tempered. I can't remember where I read this but I do remember that the main argument for tempering had to do with the harmonic balance and all the vibrations going through the hilt. I may have misunderstood it though as this was a couple of years ago. I think though I could easily be wrong, that in the context Adam just used the word temper is actually correct ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) . Because isn't it specifically the tempering step (within the heat treat process) that defines something as "spring"? (aside from it being "spring steel") I think it's only when referring to the entire heat treating process (like i did before) that it's incorrect to say "temper" as Brenno pointed out. I could be totally off here though ![:-X](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/lipssealed.png)
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Post by rammstein on Jul 16, 2008 17:47:28 GMT
Adam, what about Atrims? They are fine swords yet use threaded rods. This isn't meant as an agressive question, but are you really worried about them somehow failing?
Yes, the majority of threaded rods are probably poor, but some companies know how it's done and a properly threaded tang beats a poorly peened one any day.
Brenno, that's not entirely true. It's certainly more difficult, but albion still has to do a lot of sanding and fitting to make the blade and guard lock together. And we know it can feasibly be done by hand - look at original swords, they've often got no real gap.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 18:12:23 GMT
I have nothing against threaded rods.
I DO have something against screw-on pommels - there's a difference. Screw on pommels must have the same silhouette regardless of the lateral angle they're viewed at because it is the tension of the pommel holding everything together - as things loosen, you have to tighten the pommel and if it's not the same all the way around you get crooked look pommels after tigthening.
Atrims use pommels matched to the tang then fastened by a tang-nut. This is completely different.
IIRC, Albion or someone did an article on the stresses involved over longterm use of a sword that came to the conclusion that screw on pommels are inferior to pommel nuts. Also, they mentioned that hilt components should support themselves (i.e. not having the pommel push on the grip which then pushed on the guard to hold everything together) and not all rely on the tension of the pommel.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 16, 2008 18:36:36 GMT
I have nothing against threaded rods. I DO have something against screw-on pommels - there's a difference. Screw on pommels must have the same silhouette regardless of the lateral angle they're viewed at because it is the tension of the pommel holding everything together - as things loosen, you have to tighten the pommel and if it's not the same all the way around you get crooked look pommels after tigthening. Atrims use pommels matched to the tang then fastened by a tang-nut. This is completely different. IIRC, Albion or someone did an article on the stresses involved over longterm use of a sword that came to the conclusion that screw on pommels are inferior to pommel nuts. Also, they mentioned that hilt components should support themselves (i.e. not having the pommel push on the grip which then pushed on the guard to hold everything together) and not all rely on the tension of the pommel. I agree with Adam on that point. Threaded tangs via Atrims I don't have an issue with as to durability, tho personally I still prefer peened. Screw on pommels I won't buy knowingly. With the exception of some gladii.
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Post by rammstein on Jul 16, 2008 18:56:53 GMT
Ah ha! Now I get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2008 23:33:31 GMT
You guys never learned the trick for screw on pommels? Just wang a leather spacer on between the handle and pommel, keep adding until you get things nice and tight and still lined up.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 17, 2008 1:20:03 GMT
You guys definately have a grasp of the use of the terms over those last posts. hehe
Sam, I agree. For my screw on pommels I have leather wrapped handles, which I wrap and epoxy over the ends of the grip, thus making a compressable washer. Then add loctite. And yes, once they compress too much, we can just add leather washers. That was actually how my Windlass was done too.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 17, 2008 1:27:54 GMT
Yeah, but I still don't like screw-on pommels. It's just a personal thing... based on very unpleasant past experiences. Nothing logical. Just a phobia, I guess. I've done the leather washer/spacer. I was just never happy with the looks.
To Adam's question: We are of a like mind on this issue. I like the way ATrim pommels attach. But I wish they looked more traditional. I was chatting with Gus last night and I told him as much. And that I was considering making some replacement pommel nuts on the lathe that were mushroomed around the head, so they look like a peen. And hold the tolerance to the point that the mushroom bottoms out against the back of the tang and leaves just enough to grab with vice grips to attach... once.
I really like peened pommels the best, but only if the sword is perfect as it comes. And I like case colors and bluing a lot on certain swords. And custom grip wraps. The ATrim system works great for that.
BTW, did anyone know that Arms&Armor swords' tangs are threaded? I just found out.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 17, 2008 1:42:12 GMT
BTW, did anyone know that Arms&Armor swords' tangs are threaded? I just found out. All of them?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 1:52:44 GMT
What? I thought they were all peened Arms and Armor! I'm going to go email them them! LOL
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Post by rammstein on Jul 17, 2008 2:09:28 GMT
I seem to recall the A&A threads then cold peens their tangs. I'm pretty sure cold peening came into their process SOMEWHERE.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 17, 2008 2:14:55 GMT
That's my understanding. The tangs are threaded, the pommels fitted, then the peen blocks are actually a threaded pommel nut in the shape of a peen block that's threaded on and then the protruding threaded portion is peened against the nut to prevent it coming unscrewed... and of course, to look like a traditional peened tang.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 2:23:35 GMT
Hell, just about every single tournament kung-fu sword I own has screw-on pommels and freakin welded-on tangs. ![:-/](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) Epoxy, lock washers and rawhide (applied when wet, shrinks as it dries) can fix these for all but the most challenging situations. I wouldn't use them to cut. But that's not what they're for.
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Post by hotspur on Jul 17, 2008 2:51:37 GMT
Some are, others are not. Here is a look at one of the pommel nuts disguised as a peen block. ![](http://usera.imagecave.com/Hotspur/SFI/AAWAR003.jpg) Their knightly riding sword has a smaller thread but similar concept. There is, or was a threaded pommel model. A&A will also do it as you like. Craig will be glad to not use the threaded components and just peen, if that is what one wants. It is a very "have it your way" shop. The pictured sword being the Edward III blade with Duke of Urbino fittings. A couple of notes on Albion's methodology. Yes the fittings are cast and the blades roughed out on a cnc. There is still a good bit of hand fitting and finishing that goes on. Another, that the wedged fiitng and slab construction was typically early and that both the techniques existed side by side for awhile.. It could be said that Albion uses it a bit anachronistically for their XVth century swords and others tend to use compression fitting across the board. The obvious advantage to the Albion method is that if a grip fails (if) you still have a functional sword and all the peen is doing is holding on the pommel. I have a handful of screw on pommel swords and the issues have been well noted here. Another alternatives to shims is facing off the pommel or grip core to accommodate the same amount of rotation to alignment. A big problem with any pommel nuts or threaded pommels can be 'Tight enough, or too tight. Too loose, or just right". An alternative to Loc-Tite is fingernail polish. I dunno, I just don't seem to have had the issue with Gus' stuff others have experienced. After the initial settling/climatizing type loosening up, It has really been a non-issue and one of my most heavily used swords has been pretty stable since 2001. I tightened it up up the first season once, once after having the grip off to redo the wrap and one light gronk (really checking more than anything else) a couple of years ago. Most compression fit hilts will loosen up just a touch early on and then be pretty stable. It also depends how many times you feel you have to have them apart. I think that was an advantage to the old smooth Gus nuts. They were such that if you were using padded pliers, tight enough was pretty evident. if you look in some auto manuals, you'll see torque specifications for various size fasteners. Gus' 1/4"X20tpi stuff (or the metric 6mm fittings) really shouldn't be getting more than about 5-8ft pounds of torque maximum. Maybe double that maximum for the 5/16" or 8mm stuff. I'm not saying folk need torque wrenchs for this stuf but you don't have to overdo them. A quarter to half turn past snug should be fine, or something else is wrong. go in little increments. Cheers Hotspur; wrote more than meant to mebbe
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Post by hotspur on Jul 17, 2008 17:04:50 GMT
Having been messaged as to whether I meant inch pounds and not foot pounds, I'll include this here but it may be as equally confusing because it mentions iron and grades. Those familiar will recognize bolt grades but it really isn't necessary (as I mentioned) to be exact. I had mentioned it for those that are aquainted. dodgeram.org/tech/specs/bolts/SAE_bolts.htmlMy major concerns are that folk can often overdo. Five to eight foot pounds may sound like a lot but it is really not. Five pounds at the end of a foot long lever. Believe me, you can go a whole lot tighter with five inch locking pliers and your arm, or even a screwdriver. Cheers Hotspur; that is why the hex key Christian supplies is short armed. When it digs into your hand and sterts to make you go OW; That's exactly just about right, unless you are a gorilla like me ;D
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Post by axeman on Jul 17, 2008 17:17:00 GMT
I seem to recall the A&A threads then cold peens their tangs. I'm pretty sure cold peening came into their process SOMEWHERE. ![???](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) thats new to me i thought they peened all there swords ![???](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) thats a good thing to know, THANKS RAMMSTEIN
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