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Post by Pino on Nov 12, 2018 3:14:08 GMT
Today being the 100th year commemorating the Armistice I believe it would be a good opportunity to honour the men and women but also the poor animals who served and gave their life by presenting an article about the swords they used during this horrible conflict. Because contrary to popular belief, even though cavalry was dying by 1915 and their armament becoming obsolete, swords were still in use and carried in some way during the war. This is why I'd like to present such examples that were dated, made or were being used as commemorations of individual events during the years of 14-18. Anybody is invited to present their own specimen and discuss about them as they see fit, doesn't matter if we cover 15 Prussian KD89 provided they are relevant to the Great War. The point is that as new swords will come around in our collections and be added here, this thread will thus probably never fade away, much fitting the spirit of today like any other 11th of Nov. List of the main participants I. THE ALLIES FRANCEUK & COMMONWEALTHRUSSIAN EMPIREITALYUSASERBIAJAPANII. THE CENTRAL POWERS GERMAN EMPIREAUSTRO-HUNGARIAN EMPIREOTTOMAN EMPIREBULGARIAExampel of presentation: French 1854/83 dragoon trooper sword
Following the failure of the 1882 sword system and the older hilts of the 1854 no longer being produced, it was decided on Sept 6th 1883 that any 1854 pattern sword that needed repair would be issued a surplus hilt of the stillborn 1882s.
A certain amount of refurbished swords of this type were issued with two blade sizes: one of 95cm for the cuirassiers and the other of 92.5cm for the dragoons.
When the War broke out a number of cavalry regiments took to the field their swords held in saddle; since there was no clear regulation unlike the Light cavalry who was given the 1822/82, the heavy cavalry units used a rag-tag mix of 1854/82/83 and 1896 swords.
The sword here is an older dragoon 1854 sword dated 1866 & transformed in ‘82. It has been repaired and given the 1882 pattern hilt to replace the 1854 one but kept its double fullered blade. The particularity of this specimen is that it has been painted black sometime in its life; at first thought one would believe it was done crudely by an ignorant collector but the thing is that this same paint scheme is encountered on a lot of other models used during the War (German, French and Italian) as a form of camouflage to conceal it from sight and it is a type of paint that cannot be easily removed by any sort of modern paint strip.
Black paint was applied way before the war but only limited to scabbards to limit rust & damage; it was only later that hilts were also covered with darkening material (leather, grease or paint)
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Post by pellius on Nov 12, 2018 3:57:35 GMT
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Post by Pino on Nov 14, 2018 3:30:29 GMT
Thank you Pellius for sharing your beautiful sabre! I remember some of these 1889 were also black painted, wonder if it was intended for field use.
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Post by pellius on Nov 15, 2018 0:09:09 GMT
Thanks for the kind words. I’ll try to add to this thread a little more when time permits. My collection is pretty humble, but 19th and 20th Century swords happen to be pretty affordable, so all my antiques are from that period.
I believe that the hilt of my 1899 is blued. I took the photos when I first unboxed it at my office. The fluorescent lights are very “cool” in color (lotsa blue in the light), so the hilt looks black in the pics. I think the scabbard has the same treatment. It’s definitely not painted.
I actually know very little about the sword. Aside from the info very kindly provided by the previous owner and the nice info here on SBG, there’s not really a lot of (free) internet info in English.
I can try to take a few photos in more natural light, but right now my small weapons safe is packed so tightly I can’t really get to anything without unpacking everything.
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Post by bfoo2 on Nov 16, 2018 7:47:03 GMT
Excellent idea Pino!
It is true that cavalry swords were surprisingly prolific during this conflict. However, the sword that, to me, represents WWI better than all other is the stout artilleryman's sidearm. The Germans gunners were particularly sword happy and appeared to be issued with them in droves, but the British also got in on the action too with their lovely 1896 Mountain Battery weapon.
I have in my collection several of these, including the Prussian 1873, Bavarian 1813, and the aforementioned British 1896 mountain. I will try to put a writeup together in the coming weeks.
~
I have no records to back this up, but I suspect that infantry/artillery swords would have seen much more use in the trenches than cavalry ones. The constant small-scale trench-raiding must have resulted in close-and-personal trench fighting. Given that the submachine-gun had (for the most part) not yet appeared on the battlefield, and the obvious close-quarter combat limitations of a full-sized rifle, the combination of a sword and pistol would probably have been a surprisingly effective trench-fighting weapon system.
While I have found references to the use of clubs, shovels, knives and bayonets in trench fighting, I have yet to see an account describing the use of swords. Would be very curious to see if any such exist.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 16, 2018 9:04:12 GMT
Have fun with Austria and their stupid infantry, police, and mountain troops swords variants. If I have the time in the next week I'll send you all the info I have on my own examples I've owned, though I may not have it anymore.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 16, 2018 11:53:21 GMT
Much of what has been said here could be said of WWII, too, at least in the early part of the war. No army in 1939 was without horses and even the Germans were more horse-drawn than mechanized. Horse cavalry still had a part to play, even if sabers were little used. Otherwise, up-to-date technology was utilized in the horse cavalry as much as in the other arms, to include large radio sets being carried on horseback.
Even though motor transport largely replaced horse-drawn transport, it might be said that horse cavalry was used in the cavalry role more in WWII than in WWI, even if swords were less used (but sometimes still carried).
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 16, 2018 15:07:25 GMT
What is often forgotten is that apart from the static meatgrinder Western Front, the Eastern Front was much more fluid and Cavalry oriented. Another front out of the limelight: Turkey. I have this Turkish Officers Kilij that might have been used at the time. Also a good Shashka I can take pictures off. Tell me what you need.
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Post by Pino on Nov 16, 2018 15:35:24 GMT
Thanks guys for participating!
No big rules except I strongly believe it is best you guys introduce your patterns in short descriptive replies with some pics, like what Pellius did, you can thrown in pictures of soldiers wearing the said model if it makes you feel better too.
Just remember it has to be a sword that was around the time 1914-18, so any model made between 1900 to 1918 or older swords (re)issued for the war. Have fun!
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Post by Pino on Nov 16, 2018 15:42:53 GMT
Thanks for the kind words. I’ll try to add to this thread a little more when time permits. My collection is pretty humble, but 19th and 20th Century swords happen to be pretty affordable, so all my antiques are from that period. I believe that the hilt of my 1899 is blued. I took the photos when I first unboxed it at my office. The fluorescent lights are very “cool” in color (lotsa blue in the light), so the hilt looks black in the pics. I think the scabbard has the same treatment. It’s definitely not painted. I actually know very little about the sword. Aside from the info very kindly provided by the previous owner and the nice info here on SBG, there’s not really a lot of (free) internet info in English. I can try to take a few photos in more natural light, but right now my small weapons safe is packed so tightly I can’t really get to anything without unpacking everything. I kind of love these 1899 despite being mostly for dress, which makes me wonder why some were painted black as if they were expected to be used in the field. I can see the blue light you refer to and this is the actual gun metal finish, it's pretty nice! It's true that there isn't much to be found about Swiss swords these days, books and sources are very non-existent..
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Post by Pino on Nov 16, 2018 16:00:57 GMT
Bfoo, exactly, as I pointed out in my article about the German ersatz artillery sword, it was a good time to be in the artillery but also the logistics supply units. They ended up with all sorts of older swords and, unlike the cavalry, actually kept them until very late in the war! I'm not sure to what extent these units were involved in the trenches but yea if they were caught by an enemy attack they could rely more on their sword and handgun. Judging by the number of trench knives encountered everywhere, including some made from sword parts, any sort of melee weapon was welcome in a trench. I found on this website this particular part which is of interest: '' Raiders sallied forth from their underground dugouts armed with various bayonets, swords, hatchets, clubs, coshes, knobkerries, truncheons, hammers, daggers, pick-axes, push-knives, staves, and steel bars. The edges of entrenching shovels were ground to razor sharpness. Trench raiding clubs were both homemade and mass produced, some of which were lead filled, had steel studs or spikes hammered into them, or had their heads wrapped in barbed wire. Men carried brass knuckles (or "knuckle-dusters") and a wide array of knifes with them. Sometimes these were combined: the US army issued trench-knives fitted with metal knuckle guards and "skull crusher" or "walnut-opener" pommels to their infantry.
Inside the trenches centuries of advancement in warfare was being discarded in favor of the older lessons of mélée combat.''
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Post by Pino on Nov 16, 2018 16:23:05 GMT
Much of what has been said here could be said of WWII, too, at least in the early part of the war. No army in 1939 was without horses and even the Germans were more horse-drawn than mechanized. Horse cavalry still had a part to play, even if sabers were little used. Otherwise, up-to-date technology was utilized in the horse cavalry as much as in the other arms, to include large radio sets being carried on horseback. Even though motor transport largely replaced horse-drawn transport, it might be said that horse cavalry was used in the cavalry role more in WWII than in WWI, even if swords were less used (but sometimes still carried). People tend to believe that WW2 was only fought with tanks, planes and motorized vehicles but horses were, as you say, used to a far deeper extent than WW1 because it wasn't as static. Germany, Hungary, Romania and the USSR had many active cavalry units, as did the Poles. BTW the Cossacks, even those who defected to the Germans, and Poles under Soviet service still carried shashkas. Worth to note that these were still produced in the 1940's despite the Nazi invasion!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 16, 2018 17:29:36 GMT
Austrian Landwher officers sabre, used by an officer of the Vienna Landwher regiment. 33" very thin blade. Service sharpened, ground only on one side of the blade. m.imgur.com/a/Zke5c
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,327
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Nov 16, 2018 17:39:47 GMT
(Landwehr)
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 16, 2018 17:59:02 GMT
Regarding the Swiss Model 1899, the scabbard does not look painted to me but rather blued, as does the hilt. That doesn't mean none were ever painted, of course. WKC offers black (metal) scabbards on a couple of models, which is historically correct for those models, but I don't know what form the "blacking" is. These days, there are all sorts of ways to blacken metal, as well as similar finishes, but I don't know what was available in 1914. There is also a history of original finishes, other than plated, being polished bright later in the service life of the item and not just swords.
The hilts of service swords of the Household Cavalry Regiment are described as "stove enameled black." Scabbards, too. Don't know when that practice began or what other formerly mounted regiments do, though.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Nov 16, 2018 18:21:12 GMT
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Post by pellius on Nov 16, 2018 22:50:02 GMT
This is an Austrian Model 1904 Cav Officer Saber. Overall, it’s in very nice shape. And it’s pretty - in a delicate doily kind of way. The basket and blade are plated (nickel, I’m guessing), which has done a nice job preserving them. It does make it all extra shiny, though. I’m told this is a functional, rather than a parade/dress sword. If I’m honest, it does feel a bit dainty. It is my only pipe back blade, though. Maybe that’s just how pipe back blades are? I dont know know for sure these were used during the war, but they would’ve been around.
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Post by bfoo2 on Nov 21, 2018 6:01:48 GMT
pellius is that the one I sold you? I hope you are enjoying it
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Post by bfoo2 on Nov 21, 2018 6:41:43 GMT
British 1908 Pattern sword: Design and DevelopmentThe British 1908 is one of the two iconic cavalry weapons from the era (the other being the 1913 "Patton"). It is a distinctive, ergonomically-shaped spike designed solely for thrusting and represents a radical departure from the archetypal cut-and-thrust weapons from the previous half-century. Sure, there was some work towards incorporating thrust-centric ergonomic grip and guard designs (see the Italian 1871 or the Prussian 1889), but nobody took the idea as extreme and as suddenly as the British. While browsing the internet, I found some interesting information on the Royal Armouries Collection website concerning the history and development of the 1908 pattern. It is really quite a nice read. In an effort to share this information, I have paraphrased this article below as I believe it to be of particular interest. The Royal Armouries also has some other nifty articles and features for those whom are interested. ~ Design and Development of the 1908 pattern (information and images courtesy of Royal Armouries Collection)The 1899The preceding pattern of sword ( 1899) was apparently not a very big hit (please read the linked review for more in-depth discussion on the sword and it's shortcomings). Early "improved" 1899 prototype The move to thrusting weaponsIn 1903, a special committee for the design of an improved sword pattern was convened. The committee determined that this new sword would have a T-backed, thrusting blade, which emerged as the 1904 trials pattern. T 1904 trials pattern The traditionalists strike backThe 1904 Trials pattern was apparently quite well-received, but it irked some traditionalists including big names such as Alfred Hutton. There was a brief return to the 1899-style cut-and-thrust weapons, but I guess the troops on the ground liked what they saw with the 1904 and they kept coming back to that one. 1905 trials pattern (one of several prototypes)Towards the 1908: the 1906The 1904 experimental pattern was succeeded by the 1906 one before landing on the 1908 pattern we all know and love 1906 experimental pattern As Britain was and still is a proud monarchy, the new 1908 sword had to receive royal approval from Edward VII, who (being monarchy and therefore of a more traditional nature) famously declared it "ugly". It took intensive pleading and reasoning from his generals before he could be convinced to approve the pattern. 1908 sword and scabbard
Information and images from the Royal Armouries Collection (UK). Links:Improved 1899 prototype (1901-1902): collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-52323.html1904 pattern: collections.royalarmouries.org/first-world-war/type/rac-narrative-90.html1905 pattern: collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-277065.html1906 pattern: collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-15379.htmlComparison with contemporariesI thought I'd add a bit of information comparing the 1908 to some of its other cavalry stablemates (pun intended) which I own, or have owned in the past. This is purely a brief commentary to put the 1908 design into a broader perspective of sword development in other nations. Most of these other swords deserve their own bespoke writeup. I have pictures, but it is late (2AM) and I am lazy tonight. NB I have not owned a trooper's 1908, but I have had an 1912 officer's (EIIR). I consider the latter to be representative of the former. Spanish 1907The 1908/12 handling is defined by three key characteristics: 1) T-back thrusting blade, 2) ergonomic handle and 3) weighted pommel at the back. Most contemporaries lack some or all of these features (ex. the French 1896 lacks the hefty pommel, the 1913 "Patton" and 1889 Prussian lacks the blade). The 1907 Spanish is the only other sword which has all three. Consequently, I consider this to be the closest equivalent. The 1907 was overall much lighter to wield than the 1908/12. I attribute this to the much more aggressive fullering which extends all the way to the tip. The 1908/1912 foible is ovoid, which adds unnecessary mass at the end. I regard the 1907 as handling much like a rapier or even a smallsword, whereas the 1912 had a more of the shock-action heft that we saw with the heavy French cavs. Of the two, the 1908/12 would probably be much more stable and would impart more shock in a cavalry charge; the 1907 is much more fun to wave around on foot or to be used in a melee. Italian 1871
The Italians loved their pipebacks. Italian sword design started to evolve along similar lines to the 1908 with their 1909 experimental model, but this was ultimately not adopted. Consequently, they fought with their old 1871 pipebacks. Apparently, the hilts and scabbards were blued for service in WWI, so if you find one with a fine blue finish, that's where it came from. I have one in my own collection (not blued, though). These were of variable quality: my current 1871 is of German manufacture and it is very nimble, almost rapier-like. I used to have a second one which was unmarked. Much heavier. A "good" 1871 handles very lightly. Despite outward appearances, it is a fine point weapon, and not the big heavy bruiser we are accustomed to from other pipeback designs (cough cough German 1852). In conjunction with the thumb-tab, this handles not unlike the 1908/12 despite the drastically different appearance. Blue 1871 (Sailor in Saddle)1913 "Patton"I often hear the 1913 being described as a "thrusting" sword. I do not think this is true. While the thumb-tab and heavy hilt (which serves somewhat as a pommel) does help with point-control, I group it closer in handling to basket-hilt broadswords that has been updated to permit use of the point. The long blade and slightly ergonomic grip bears passing resemblance to the 1908/12, but I consider these to be distinct based on the blade. Unlike the 1908/12 I rate it as effective in the cut as well as the thrust.
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Post by pellius on Nov 21, 2018 13:01:34 GMT
pellius is that the one I sold you? I hope you are enjoying it Yes, this is the one. It’s probably the fanciest looking sword I own. To me, it seems similar to the Swiss m1899 in look and feel, but is a bit lighter. The only sword systems I have had actual formal training in are CMA niuweidao and a tiny bit of sport fencing saber and foil. To my novice hand, this sword leans much closer to foil. The thought of relying on this sword when facing an aggressive opponent just kinda fills me with dread. Again, maybe that’s because I lack depth of training and experience. After all, the French m1829 Art'y Saber seems to have been an actual military sidearm, and may have been expected to square off against light cavalry. Anyway, I enjoy the sword. It handles nicely, and is a fun piece. I did not intend my previous post to be quite as condescending as it reads. Imagining this sword being used on the horrific industrialized battlefields of The Great War just seems ... I don’t know ... kinda of out of place. But I like the sword. 😊
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