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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 10:52:03 GMT
I was wondering about the composition of the clay used in differential hardening of a sword. I think I saw a thread about this somewhere, but I can't seem to find it! Would pottery clay be okay?
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Post by Matthew Stagmer on Jul 8, 2008 15:15:30 GMT
No idea if pottery clay would work or not. I use refractory watered way down.
Give it a go and see what happens.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jul 8, 2008 15:55:38 GMT
Yes, it has to be very liquid doesn't it, from what I've seen.
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slav
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Katsujin No Ken
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Post by slav on Jul 8, 2008 18:26:05 GMT
Satanite (mixed in water) is the best to use. I have had good results from Rutland/high-temp. furnace cement.
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Post by septofclansinclair on Jul 8, 2008 18:35:33 GMT
Satanite (mixed in water) is the best to use. I have had good results from Rutland/high-temp. furnace cement. Satanite? I dunno... sounds "evil," somehow... (Not trying to derail, sorry!)
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Post by Matthew Stagmer on Jul 8, 2008 19:02:23 GMT
Yes Satanite works well. I forged a large tanto from s7 and got a hamon with Satanite.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2008 19:31:26 GMT
www.knives.com/claytemp.htmlThe clay, as I've been calling it all this time, really isn't clay. The best sword hardening glop that I've been able to find, through six or seven years of trying, has been A.P. Greens No. 36, High Alumina Refractory Cement, suggested by both Mike Bell and Francis Boyd. They brought this up after I'd spent about three years in rather futile experiments. It comes in fifty or one hundred pound pails, mixed and ready to use. Keep it sealed with a plastic cover, right on the clay, inside the closed lid, and it will last for months. Fifty pounds will be enough for at least twenty swords and costs around thirty five dollars. A.P. Green has distributors all around the country, and they can even ship the buckets by U P S.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 1:12:27 GMT
You see when you ask, you get a BUNCH of different answers, and all ar right, experiment and find what works for you, I know of a famous maker who uses the rutland furnace cement for all his hamon. I like Satanite and Rutland.
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Post by Dan Davis on Jul 9, 2008 11:37:52 GMT
From a COMPLETELY different perspective, I use the traditional materials dictated by history and have found that satanite (AP Green 36, Rutland, it's all essentially furnace mortar) is a totally inferior product. All manner of problems arise from the use of these materials, resulting in modifications to the process, which in turn eliminate a lot of the more esoteric controls and processes that allow the really cool hamon to develop.
Not that they produce a less durable sword, just that they limit the smith's ability to do the "impossible".
[EDIT:] I forgot to answer the original question- pottery clay totally and completely sucks hind tit for yake-ire; don't even bother with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 21:26:32 GMT
Thanks for everyone's input! Would you mind telling what the traditional materials are Dan? I know that from different sources it can be any combinations of clay, ground whetstone, ash, and carbon powder, but I have absolutely no idea how to go about making it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 21:27:55 GMT
Oh and does anyone know what refractory cement is usually used for, because if I decide to use it, it might prove hard to find...
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Post by Dan Davis on Jul 10, 2008 1:02:43 GMT
Refractory cement is using for gluing firebricks together, instead of mortar. Basicly it is a high-temperature mortar. Formula I use: 1 handful of dried, ground up clay, 1 handful of powdered limestone (NOT lime or quicklime), four heaping double handfuls of hardwood ash that has been filtered through a fine mesh screen. Be sure to get those measurements exactly right or it won't work
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 1:41:56 GMT
now is that little mixture for 1 blade?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 1:48:49 GMT
Satanite? I dunno... sounds "evil," somehow... (Not trying to derail, sorry!) Perfectly fitting name for a 3,000F plus heat resistant clay/mortar I think .
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Post by Dan Davis on Jul 10, 2008 11:31:48 GMT
now is that little mixture for 1 blade? No, I mix it dry and keep it in an old coffee can. Then I take out what I need for the blade I'm working on and mix it with water in a small plastic tub. I find that those amounts are just about the right volume for me to get a fairly consistent mix ratio and be able to combine them thoroughly without working too hard at it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2008 20:53:04 GMT
Another question:
I've seen that not applying clay to the mune (spine) is a way to prevent the blade from curving too much and also prevents it from snapping? I'm concerned that it might make a 'hamon' on the mune of the blade though?
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Post by Dan Davis on Jul 12, 2008 11:48:39 GMT
This does work to some extent and is supported by many very prominent smiths. It does leave a hamon on the spine of the blade. This "shadow hamon" is usually not seen because the mune and ji are burnished, leaving them smooth and very shiny.
This is one of those things I cringe at, though. I find it stupid, but far be it for me to gainsay all of the avid supporters of this method.
Proper understanding of the yake ire process combined with proper materials makes this dangerous practice unneccessary.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2008 13:36:18 GMT
Dan, once again, you prove yourself to be the Man. thanks for the clay formula.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 20:34:46 GMT
Mmm... thats what I thought. I'm also not a big fan of the idea, but I've been wondering about it because such prominent smiths advised it. I'm glad to hear that I was right in thinking it a bit weird, thanks dan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 10:51:09 GMT
Another question! How about no clay? I've seen that people just dip the edge in the water for the first few seconds before submerging the rest of the sword to produce a hamon. Is this a bad idea? Obviously you can only create a suguha hamon like this. I'm planning to use EN45 thats a deep hardening steel, will this have any effect on the process?
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