|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 10, 2018 20:14:56 GMT
First off dude it sucks that the sword didn't turn out the way u hoped, lord knows that has happened to me before, but the problem I have is that sonny already compensated u with an amount you both agreed on then just because the signature edition is back u want him to refund you another 300ish for the scabbard, I think you should of just taken the offered full refund that is more then fair if sonny had offered it considering he already gave u compensation on top of that, it does appear to be some qc issues with the new line tho, sonny might have bitten off more then he can chew I don't agree. The minimum wage amount was for the work I did on products that came in an inferior state to even the signature line...that includes both sword and scabbard, and because of that fact is why I proposed the idea...come on man, he wants me to send the sword back, wait for a refund, wait for a Signature one if I ordered it (who knows how that would come), pay for more shipping, pay for more duty. ...didn't you take those factors into account before posting your reply? Regarding the quality control issues and sending a product out in the state he did..this demonstrates a lack of professionalism in the work and product plus a lack of caring for the customer. Further, the full refund would only be given when he sold the sword if I had returned it...so who knows how long that would be.
|
|
stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,649
|
Post by stormmaster on Aug 10, 2018 20:19:39 GMT
Oh I thought he offered u a full refund then and now, yeah that's a bit of a doozy cause I'm sure it will sell but who knows when, still dude he paid u back for work that u chose to do, I think u should of just sent it back when u got it for full refund immediately, that's how I usually handle things if something arrives subpar to what it should have been, but after he paid u some compensation he was no longer obliged to give u a full refund immediately, still sucks tho since it's a sword u really wanted
|
|
stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,649
|
Post by stormmaster on Aug 10, 2018 20:23:07 GMT
Like when I got a forge direct piece I sent it back instantly cause it was not even the right piece and got a full refund, but if sbg had paid me like 200 as compensation then its settled in my mind, suddenly I see they have brought a new line back and now I want them to pay me more or give me a full refund I can see why they wouldn't, u know what I mean?
|
|
|
Post by wolfskull23 on Aug 10, 2018 20:48:38 GMT
This is concerning. Especially for an international customer like you, this is not something that really needs the back and forth. For the price you're paying, it should be pristine (or maybe 1 very, very, very minor blemish).
When my Heron was a bit delayed, I contacted Sonny and got a reply within a day saying it was being fabricated and shipped soon. I could understand there being some minor blemishes at the $500-600 range, but not at the Craftsman level. Every time I see a VA post on Facebook, all the pieces look very nice. The work times used to be 10-16 weeks, but now are 20-24. Perhaps this is too much for VA and trying to nudge into the Albion/Arm & Armor, etc. level.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 0:41:10 GMT
Oh I thought he offered u a full refund then and now, yeah that's a bit of a doozy cause I'm sure it will sell but who knows when, still dude he paid u back for work that u chose to do, I think u should of just sent it back when u got it for full refund immediately, that's how I usually handle things if something arrives subpar to what it should have been, but after he paid u some compensation he was no longer obliged to give u a full refund immediately, still sucks tho since it's a sword u really wanted First, he never offered me a thing other than to send it back. As I said, that is onerous for me living rural. I suggested a good will amount for the work I did and received that after a reminder 2nd email to him. You have to understand that at the time he would have known he was offering the Signature line again, but he did not tell me that. When one variable in an agreement changes, then it is likely to produce a different result, and that is what happened when I saw that the Signature line was again available. Keep in mind that the sword and scabbard I received was not as good as the Signature sword I already had since 2011. If he had offered to have me send the sword back and send me a Signature sword and a refund for the difference between the cost of the Craftsman and the Signature I would have went for it. That is what I'm getting at...for all this trouble and work...my work, he would have still gained money if he refunded the amount of the scabbard to me over refunding the full amount and then me ordering one Signature sword. I wanted this so I would not have to wait another 20-24 weeks or more...most likely much more (speaking from another's experience), and not having the hassle of sending it back. What I suggested was more than fair.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 0:47:58 GMT
This is concerning. Especially for an international customer like you, this is not something that really needs the back and forth. For the price you're paying, it should be pristine (or maybe 1 very, very, very minor blemish). When my Heron was a bit delayed, I contacted Sonny and got a reply within a day saying it was being fabricated and shipped soon. I could understand there being some minor blemishes at the $500-600 range, but not at the Craftsman level. Every time I see a VA post on Facebook, all the pieces look very nice. The work times used to be 10-16 weeks, but now are 20-24. Perhaps this is too much for VA and trying to nudge into the Albion/Arm & Armor, etc. level. Yes, I agree with what you have said...it is concerning, and yes as an international customer (Canadian) the exchange rate ended up costing me a lot more for the sword. I know that's not Sonny's fault, but the fact remains about how much in Canadian funds this cost me. Also, the exchange rate has gone up now making ordering now more expensive. Further, there was no offer to refund me the duty amount if I had sent the sword back. I truly wish I had received the quality sword and scabbard he advertises so; 1. I would not have had to do work on the sword and scabbard, 2. I could still have a good view and feeling about VA and Sonny, and 3. this thread would have reflected a good experience.
|
|
stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,649
|
Post by stormmaster on Aug 11, 2018 1:16:04 GMT
I think VA is at fault here big time, they shouldnt of sent out a crappy product in the first place, but I also feel it should have ended after you and Sonny agreed on a compensation and he paid u what you both agreed on, its too late for it but you probably should have just send it back immediately after u got it for full refund. You might think differently and I understand the frustration but hopefully this ends amicably for both sides
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 11, 2018 1:18:38 GMT
Yeah, I agree with stormmaster here. You agreed on a payment for work no one asked you to perform on an item you should have (and I understand the shipping charges are ridiculous from U.S. to Canada and then from Canada to U.S. and then back and forth again) sent back in the first place.
VA is at fault, that is indisputable. But at the same time you made a deal.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 2:01:57 GMT
If a company offered a customer a deal while knowing they had something in the works that might affect the deal, the Courts would take that very seriously as being a possible deal breaker. Now don't interpret this as legal action...I'm just pointing something out. You both seem to be missing the point here - good customer relations, and he would still have made money. Now he has lost a customer. Heck if he had offered me two Signatures that would almost equal the one Craftsman I might have went for it, but I REALLY did not want any further wait time or hassles sending it back. No one asked me to do the work...I should not have had to do the work in the first place, but I did because of reasons already given which seem to be being missed.
|
|
|
Post by elbrittania39 on Aug 11, 2018 3:25:22 GMT
Its worth taking into account VA is not a massive corporation. A company like Apple can take a financial hit to right a wrong with a customer, but Artisan work like this really doesnt have the scale or time to do that.
While Sonny certainly COULD have done more, I'm not sure it is fair to expect him to offer more than he did.
|
|
|
Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 11, 2018 4:18:40 GMT
If a company offered a customer a deal while knowing they had something in the works that might affect the deal, the Courts would take that very seriously as being a possible deal breaker. Now don't interpret this as legal action...I'm just pointing something out. You both seem to be missing the point here - good customer relations, and he would still have made money. Now he has lost a customer. Heck if he had offered me two Signatures that would almost equal the one Craftsman I might have went for it, but I REALLY did not want any further wait time or hassles sending it back. No one asked me to do the work...I should not have had to do the work in the first place, but I did because of reasons already given which seem to be being missed. I understand why you did the work. I've done similar on antiques that in all fairness I overpayed on. I disagree in so far as saying that Sonny should offer you more because he was planning on reintroducing the signature line. You also state that even after you had both agreed on a deal and gone through with that deal he offered a full refund, though this (as you state) turned into a full refund after the item is relisted and sold, an offer that, again, wasn't required to be made by any law other than by moral code. Also, as far as feeling like you payed more than you should have for an inferior product, It should be kept in mind that not only is this a new line of swords and with every new line of anything there are always hiccups and screwups in production, but that the line is also hand made entirely by a two person team, and not churned out of Chinese forges. I'm not saying this as an excuse but rather a possible reason for the poor (in comparison to you previous purchase) quality of the item received. Getting a lemon sucks and it sucks even more when you feel like you get screwed over by the manufacturer afterwords. And VA is definitely at a fault here, but let's take both parties into account as well.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 11:03:59 GMT
If a company offered a customer a deal while knowing they had something in the works that might affect the deal, the Courts would take that very seriously as being a possible deal breaker. Now don't interpret this as legal action...I'm just pointing something out. You both seem to be missing the point here - good customer relations, and he would still have made money. Now he has lost a customer. Heck if he had offered me two Signatures that would almost equal the one Craftsman I might have went for it, but I REALLY did not want any further wait time or hassles sending it back. No one asked me to do the work...I should not have had to do the work in the first place, but I did because of reasons already given which seem to be being missed. I understand why you did the work. I've done similar on antiques that in all fairness I overpayed on. I disagree in so far as saying that Sonny should offer you more because he was planning on reintroducing the signature line. You also state that even after you had both agreed on a deal and gone through with that deal he offered a full refund, though this (as you state) turned into a full refund after the item is relisted and sold, an offer that, again, wasn't required to be made by any law other than by moral code. Also, as far as feeling like you payed more than you should have for an inferior product, It should be kept in mind that not only is this a new line of swords and with every new line of anything there are always hiccups and screwups in production, but that the line is also hand made entirely by a two person team, and not churned out of Chinese forges. I'm not saying this as an excuse but rather a possible reason for the poor (in comparison to you previous purchase) quality of the item received. Getting a lemon sucks and it sucks even more when you feel like you get screwed over by the manufacturer afterwords. And VA is definitely at a fault here, but let's take both parties into account as well. If fully understand that it is a new line, but even so I feel/felt that especially because of that and a lack of quality...which should not have been if there was quality control, he should have been more customer oriented and concerned more with customer satisfaction than he ended up being. As I mentioned it's not about law and imo not about moral code but rather in my mind is about customer satisfaction code. Like I said at first he wanted to have me send the sword back to have it fixed...there was no mention of a full refund, and that's okay, but I had already did the work as I did not want that rust sitting there any longer to do more damage. When I told him the work was already done, he offered nothing on his own accord. The point of the Signature line is that the sword and scabbard I have from that line are of better quality than the supposed higher quality of the Craftsman line. In the Signature line the scabbard is included in the price. SO since the Craftsman scabbard I received was below the quality of a Signature scabbard I thought it was fair to not charge me for it. The small amount of money I received was for the work on the sword. I had not yet did any work on the scabbard. I hope this is now understood. Also keep in mind that doing what I suggested would not only have satisfied me as a customer that paid the full amount from the start, but would actually have cost him very little and had huge payoffs regarding customer satisfaction.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 11:06:03 GMT
Its worth taking into account VA is not a massive corporation. A company like Apple can take a financial hit to right a wrong with a customer, but Artisan work like this really doesnt have the scale or time to do that. While Sonny certainly COULD have done more, I'm not sure it is fair to expect him to offer more than he did. I don't quite understand. Isn't your post at odds? On the one hand you say he doesn't have the scale to right a wrong, but then say he could have done more. Could implies ability to do this financially. As far as not having the time to do that I think is not correct. It would not have taken much time at all to do as I requested.
|
|
|
Post by tdiamante on Aug 11, 2018 14:30:36 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only flaws in the scabbard are some scarring and the rain flap which has come loose? I don't see how that warrants a refund. You would not be wrong to ask to return it or for compensation for fixing it yourself(as you did with the sword) but as far as it being "below the quality of the signature line" I've see VA scabbards with similar cosmetic issues(not the rainflap, that is a legitimate defect, not cosmetic). It comes with the low price point. While you may see your product as inferior to the Signature Line, and I understand why it's so frustrating that it costs more; it is a wholly different product(the sword not the scabbard). There are a couple functional differences, the Craftsmen is made from 6150 instead of 1060/70. But the real difference in cost stems from that "made in America" tag. Materials, heat treating, and expendables on the first sword and scabbard I made ran me a little over $300, and I got a great deal on the steel. In other cases it cost me over $400. So with another $300 refund, I doubt Sonny would even be hitting minimum wage on the sword he sold you. There is a balance between customer satisfaction and paying the bills and your request probably just landed on the wrong side of that.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 15:00:17 GMT
The scabbard had a couple of dents in the leather, rain flap that was coming apart, and 1/8 inch scar running across the width of the scabbard outer surface. I have a Signature scabbard that is much better than that. With those defects that Craftsman scabbard has it is not worth the $300 USD that I paid which in Canadian Dollars ended up being a lot more. The rain flap I fixed, the rest is not fixable. I think that those flaws do warrant a refund. At that cost, leather with a scar should not have been chosen. Thanks for the explanation on sword steel, but I was not speaking about returning the sword for a full refund when I had already did the corrective work on it at minimum wage. A further refund would be for the scabbard, not the sword.
|
|
|
Post by tdiamante on Aug 11, 2018 15:17:57 GMT
Thanks that makes more sense. But unfortunately I think you are still stuck with what you got unless you take the long, total refund route. If the shipping issues didn't exist, this could be easily resolved, but with limited options that's probably the best outcome. Unless you can sell it on your own and make your money back.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 15:25:15 GMT
I agree, I am stuck with it. Sonny did not offer a return and refund on the scabbard (I would have wanted the shipping I would have to pay refunded as well). I would have accepted a partial refund, but he was not forthcoming with that either. The scabbard is fit to the sword, so I think selling it is not an option. Thanks for your feedback as a Manufacturer and vendor.
|
|
|
Post by tdiamante on Aug 11, 2018 15:29:12 GMT
I'll add too, I've bought the highest grade veg tan leather whole hide I could find, and it still had some minor scarring. At the price VA charges, I would expect to see some scarring. But yes, I would also have expected the Craftsmen to have the better cut of leather and the Signature to be scarred, not vice versa.
|
|
|
Post by tdiamante on Aug 11, 2018 15:35:15 GMT
I agree, I am stuck with it. Sonny did not offer a return and refund on the scabbard (I would have wanted the shipping I would have to pay refunded as well). I would have accepted a partial refund, but he was not forthcoming with that either. The scabbard is fit to the sword, so I think selling it is not an option. Thanks for your feedback as a Manufacturer and vendor. Sorry for not being clear, I was referring to a refund of the whole package( with VA selling it before refunding you) for that exact reason. Unless you want to sell both sword and scabbard on your own. It will cost you time but in my personal opinion, you will probably be happier waiting to get a different sword than keeping one you're not satisfied with.
|
|
|
Post by Wes Cameron on Aug 11, 2018 16:19:25 GMT
That's okay. At this point the sword is fixed except I still have to do some work on the ends of the fullers...they need to be widened a little more and the depth make even. The last part will be more difficult to achieve so it matches the fuller before it. But as it is now after the work I have already done, it is not too bad. I estimate that in total I will have done about 14-15 hours of work after that is fixed more. I sharpened it so it would cut paper and shave hair, and it has cut a bottle, so I am assuming the temper is good. I don't think VA has ever had a tempering issue so I'm not concerned with that (it's just a faint background thought due to the other issues). I really did not want to wait a further 20-24 weeks for another sword to arrive (if he was going to replace it like he is doing with one other customer on the forum)...but just to make it clear, Sonny did not offer that option to me, but on the other hand there was no reason to since I had already fixed most of it. As well, his wait times are beyond the 24 week period by a considerable amount. My wait time was I think 14-16 weeks, and I waited a lot longer than that.
|
|