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Post by narcoleptic on May 20, 2018 6:28:57 GMT
Recently I bought a Hanwei Kaeru Katana and it cost a quite a bit.
However, when I lay it flat upon my table, I noticed that it was not perfectly laterally symmetrical. The left side seems to be ever so lightly thinner on the spine than the right side and when I examine the spine of the nagasa from the top, I notice that 3 inches from the kissaki, the blade is very, very slightly bent towards the right by about 0.25-0.5 degrees. All of these imperfections are not noticeable upon a cursory inspection and need a detailed examination using bight light and tools to verify.
My question is.......is it realistic to expect brand new hand forged katana to be dimensionally perfect, 100% symmetrical and perfectly laterally straight?
Are minor dimension or straightness issues normal even for the more expensive katana?
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Post by randomnobody on May 20, 2018 14:37:08 GMT
These blades are still "hand forged" in the sense that someone's hammering out a piece of metal to make them, albeit en masse. "Mass production" does not necessarily mean machine-made, stamped, or what have you. Heck, Albion is, technically, a "mass production" business, with CNC blanks finished by hand and, would you believe it, minor imperfections varying by piece.
What's being asked about here is not such a disastrous thing, even at this price point. It shouldn't hinder the sword in any meaningful way, but if one is dissatisfied for any reason they should (politely) seek an exchange from wherever they purchased the item.
In the end, the biggest drawback of buying online is not being able to see what you're getting first. You have to trust somebody else to make sure it's up to snuff. Even then, not everybody has the same rigorous standards, and even then sometimes things get overlooked in the rush to get more done.
You can straighten your bend, but you'll have to grind the thicker side to match the thinner if it bothers you that much, at which point you'll have to redo pretty much all the furniture as it won't fit anymore. Or you can just leave it as it is and have a very adequate, functional cutting weapon.
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Post by randomnobody on May 20, 2018 16:32:18 GMT
Right. I just think when people hear "hand-forged" their mind immediately jumps to the Japanese smith in his sandals painstakingly crafting your blade before a shrine or something, perfecting every detail... When in reality you can call anything hand-forged from the real deal to power-hammer and assembly line. Perhaps, but I see it used more as a defense to the opposite. "These swords are hand-forged, thus will vary in dimensions and may bear some minor imperfections as part of the hand-forged process. This is to be expected from a hand-made piece" etc.
Even a Japanese smith isn't absolutely perfect. Heck, most of them just forge in the most basic lines, and maybe grind them up a bit, but most of the work we see is from a separate polisher. They're the one who gets those lines crisp, the surface smooth, and enhance the details inside the steel.
Tons of antique pieces, Japanese and otherwise, are riddled with asymmetry, uneven lines, bends, the works.
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Post by skane on May 20, 2018 19:46:30 GMT
Recently I bought a Hanwei Kaeru Katana and it cost a quite a bit.
..
My question is.......is it realistic to expect brand new hand forged katana to be dimensionally perfect, 100% symmetrical and perfectly laterally straight?
Are minor dimension or straightness issues normal even for the more expensive katana? @ the Kaeru price point ($990 at KoA), I'd expect it to be unbent brand new. However, there are things common to production katana, like low/high grind areas, ripple, and swell at kissaki that can make a blade appear bent at certain angles. Look down the mune, the ha, and blade flats to check straightness. If you're using a table as your guide, put a straightedge on the table to make sure your table is flat. If it bothers you enough, return it.
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Post by randomnobody on May 20, 2018 20:26:06 GMT
Another point to consider for any bending especially towards the tip, is that it may well have shipped out straight but incurred some damage in transit.
Of course, for swords shipped in wooden scabbards, it's pretty easy to tell when there's been any damage, so we can assume this sword either was overlooked in QI or damaged at some other point.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 20, 2018 22:12:52 GMT
I'd return it. If you bought it from KoA then I'm not surprised at the issues.
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Post by treeslicer on May 22, 2018 15:54:05 GMT
Recently I bought a Hanwei Kaeru Katana and it cost a quite a bit.
However, when I lay it flat upon my table, I noticed that it was not perfectly laterally symmetrical. The left side seems to be ever so lightly thinner on the spine than the right side and when I examine the spine of the nagasa from the top, I notice that 3 inches from the kissaki, the blade is very, very slightly bent towards the right by about 0.25-0.5 degrees. All of these imperfections are not noticeable upon a cursory inspection and need a detailed examination using bight light and tools to verify.
My question is.......is it realistic to expect brand new hand forged katana to be dimensionally perfect, 100% symmetrical and perfectly laterally straight?
Are minor dimension or straightness issues normal even for the more expensive katana? Return it. It's supposed to be a new sword. Damage isn't acceptable. OTOH, you can find all manner of dings, bends, and polishing howlers on authentic antique nihonto. People were using them for combat, executions, and cutting practice for hundreds of years, right?
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Post by zabazagobo on May 22, 2018 21:22:38 GMT
Some slight deviations in geometry are pretty typical and aren't anything to get too worked up about (it's seen with historical specimens and is just something that occurs when crafting something complex). A blade being bent out of the box is another issue. If it is noticeably bent and off center, I'd return it. A new katana shouldn't be that way out of the box.
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bpogue
Manufacturer/Vendor
Posts: 354
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Post by bpogue on May 25, 2018 18:05:15 GMT
First let me say; if you are not happy then return it. No harm, no foul.
Second I will say; did you buy a ruler or a sword?
I would be surprised if any sword we have out back is perfectly straight or matches our published online specs exactly. Just try to swap out saya on any of our swords, from the least expensive practical to the most expensive katana. It won't work. (Well maybe a better chance of finding one that will "work").
The real issue with bent blades is not actually the hand forging (or hammer forging, whichever you like) or even the rough grinding or polishing... it's the heat treat. Even medieval swords made by CNC come out quite straight off the machine, but many have to be adjusted after heat treat. Steel that has been given a spring temper has a pretty good "memory" of its shape so any bend or worse twist in the blade has to be adjusted out carefully. Anyone who has bent a blade on a bad cut or bent a fencing blade on a hard thrust knows you can bend it back to straight enough easily enough, but perfectly straight...
Please take this post in the manner intended, just as information. As I said first, if it bothers you then please return it. I would rather you have a sword you are happy with than one you felt was lacking!
(Leaving early for the weekend, won't be able to reply again til Tuesday)
Have a good weekend, Blake
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,090
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Post by admin on May 27, 2018 6:56:43 GMT
I have seen these swords being made and for the amount of time and hard work that goes into them, it is still something of a miracle they can be made available at current pricing.
The problem is that every time someone expects too much it puts a lot of pressure on pricing, which is already strained to close to breaking point. Shipping costs have gone up. Wages in China have gone up dramatically. Many of the Longquan companies are on the verge of shutting down, and profits are sliced to the bone. So every time we need to dip into our own pockets to cover what is not a flaw but simply not to a customers expectation puts more pressure on us and every other retailer to push up the price to stay in business.
No offense to the OP but a realistic expectation is to look down the blade and see how straight it is. If you look for minor things, you will find them - be it Albion, Nihonto or a $100 beater..
When some swords can look like this:
Well, then that's definitely unacceptable and a cause for return. But if you really have to look for a cosmetic imperfection, find it (and you will - I have seen $7K Nihonto that a lot of members here would complain about) and then want to return the sword - maybe it is better to collect swiss army knives or guns or something that are almost entirely made by machines rather than hand made swords (yes, they may be mass produced, but at each station there is a TON of blood, sweat and tears that goes into even the most basic sub $300 Katana).
Just my perspective as an enthusiast, vendor, manufacturer and industry insider.
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Post by bluetrain on May 27, 2018 9:25:17 GMT
As a general statement about all things, there is more handwork involved in most production than is generally realized. Whether or not it is craftsmanship is another question, of course. There may be a lot of sweat, especially in warm weather, perhaps some tears but usually little blood, even with blades, unless you're talking about the kitchen.
And speaking of bent blades, in fencing (foil, epee, etc.), one of the first things you do with a new sword is to bend the end of blade. That's all that happens when you score, anyway.
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on May 27, 2018 14:21:35 GMT
If you are unhappy return it. But ¼°-½°? really? Perhaps you need to look for another hobby and forget this one. The best of luck in whatever you decide.
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stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
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Post by stormmaster on May 27, 2018 18:30:44 GMT
Agreed that is so miniscule I wouldn't even consider it bent, but in the end of the day as the consumer u have the right to return it if u don't like it, but don't expect total perfection from something made by hand is all I say, I like to call hand made pieces flawed perfection because if u really look hard enough there will be something off no matter how high end you go cause people just can't be perfect like cnc made swords are, both have their charms for me
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on May 27, 2018 20:45:55 GMT
I have TH katana I received brand new with maybe a 1 degree bent, works just fine.
o7
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 27, 2018 22:52:23 GMT
A 1000 $ blade in general shouldn't have faults that you can see with your eyes holding the sword in your hand, I think. Measuring tools or so I wouldn't use, that is in the range of natural bladesmithing inaccuracy.
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Post by Faldarin on May 28, 2018 1:04:42 GMT
My question is.......is it realistic to expect brand new hand forged katana to be dimensionally perfect, 100% symmetrical and perfectly laterally straight?
Are minor dimension or straightness issues normal even for the more expensive katana? To answer the original question? No. I doubt you can expect that from anything, even a custom handmade sword. A katana with hand/hammer forging and maybe more elaborate folding/hardening process? Even less so. I doubt there are smiths out there who use precise tools to measure deviation of the blade... and all of the processes a katana goes through just complicates the matters further. I would say extreme issues are NOT normal for more expensive katana, but a deviation of a quarter to half a degree... that is incredibly small, unless you mistyped your original post. Anything handmade will likely have potentially multiple deviations that small.
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Post by zabazagobo on May 28, 2018 1:27:14 GMT
Faldarin and AndiTheBarvarian capture my sentiments exactly. Slight, small deviations are totally normal and are more of a sign that something was handmade than being anything worrisome. Being 0.25 degrees off is really such a tiny deviation that I can't imagine it being significantly problematic. Now, if it's bent, say 25 degrees out of line, yeah that would be a problem. admin I mostly agree, but I'm of the opinion that some swords need the extra effort and resources put into assembly and attention to detail and may warrant an increase in price. Focusing on keeping costs down causes anything from a wakizashi from Munetoshi to a jian from Forge Direct to have appreciable issues with assembly.
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,090
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Post by admin on May 28, 2018 3:26:25 GMT
Its not so much focusing on cutting costs, but rather limiting what COULD be done. I mean, for Katana - there are at least 20 odd parts in the assembly, habaki, tsuka core, rayskin, seppa, ito, fuchigashira, mekugi, tsuba, saya, koiguchi - you get the idea. And that is not even considering the blade - kissaki, bo-hi, boshi, etc.
What materials used, how much it is customized or adjusted to fit the sword the components is what determines the final price. When you consider it is possible to pay $500 for a hand crafted habaki alone, you start to see that it is not really deciding on what corners to cut, but how much refinement you want to put into the sword - and that will determine the final price.
I have said it before and I will say it again, for all the work that goes into making even the most stock standard production Katana, it truly is a miracle that they can be offered at the prices they are..
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on May 28, 2018 4:50:55 GMT
Ehhh...wabi-sabi.
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pgandy
Moderator
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Post by pgandy on May 28, 2018 5:42:40 GMT
Got to thinking of this video and got out of bed to do a search. It involves a cutting competition in Japan. With all due respect I strongly suspect the competitors are a class or two higher than you and demand an outstanding performing sword. What you may find of interest is not the competitors but that little stand to their right in front of that blue/white banner. The man setting behind the table is a smith. During the video you will see three men carry their katanas to him to straighten the blade. The first time with the man in white the smith didn’t get it right so made the second attempt. This is of interest because you get a glimpse of him doing so and his technique. I’ll guarantee that he didn’t get that blade to less than a ¼° in line. Later you will two others carry their sword to him but you will not see him doing the actual work. The acceptance test is known as “eye balling” and is done by all.
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