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Post by avey on Mar 27, 2018 0:04:38 GMT
Now here is an interesting question about ronin... those that did not commit seppuku, were they ever allowed to swear allegiance to a new lord after the death of their original? Was that common? Or was it pretty much the end of the line for their family if the lord died, once a ronin always a ronin?
... speaking of seppuku (this is a sensitive topic I know)... I understand that if a male samurai was told to commit seppuku by his lord that often his spouse also committed seppuku. I am curious if there were ever instances where an onna-bugeisha was told to commit seppuku DIRECTLY because of something *she did and not her husband? In that case would the husband also commit seppuku or would he simply move on with his life and re-marry? The latter sounds more realistic but I am curious.
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 27, 2018 0:05:21 GMT
I am not so sure about the ranking of shinobi (ninja) but from my understanding shinobi was a *role not a rank or class (but all shinobi were in fact part of the bushi class despite the popular peasant mythology)... a shinobi was simply a samurai trained in espionage, infiltration and scouting. That shinobi could be a low rank samurai or a high rank samurai, or a low rank samurai with a lot of money or a poor high ranking samurai. I think zabs is right in that it is important to break these concepts down in order to better understand the nuances. It may be more accurate to consider ronin also a "role" or more the absence of a role... being that they are unemployed but still bushi. There is also another group of ronin called the kabukimono who in some ways were the predecessors to the yakuza (as far as I understand it). Here are the english descriptions of the bushi ranking system according to some BS website. Ashigaru (conscript, non-bushi): Translated as 'light feet' the Ahigaru role evolved over time, but was basically the conscript army from the peasants called to fight in times of war. Often supplying their own weapons and armour they were often found to be unruly. Not classed as Samurai, Asigaru who showed valor on the battlefield however could be accepted into the Samurai ranks. Apprentice: An unofficial rank reserved for the youngest or most inexperienced samurai. Most apprentices are in their early youth to preteen levels. Aonisaibushi (Amateur Samurai): The lowest official rank among the samurai, these are apprentices that have completed their training, usually under a Seieibushi and are generally accompanied by their masters to ensure their safety. Chukanbushi (Middle Samurai): The most common rank among the samurai, these samurai are intermediately skilled, often acting as guards, sentinels, watchmen, and other miscellaneous positions. Seieibushi (Elite Samurai): Traditionally the highest rank among the samurai, these are highly skilled fully-fledged samurai. Most samurai at the level of Seieibushi take on apprentices or Aonisaibushi-samurai as their disciples. Kodenbushi (Legendary Samurai): A highly coveted rank, and often seen as the highest attainable position, with the sole exception of the rank of Shogun. These are samurai of tremendous capability, and are regarded as being of Shogun-level. Kodenbushi are hired to accomplish some of the most dangerous international missions. Samurai of Kodenbushi rank are extremely rare, and there are no more than four in any given country. Daimyo (Lords): This title translates to 'Big Name' and is given to the heads of the clan. Shogun (Military Dictator): The apex of the samurai, the Shogun is the most prestigious rank possible for a samurai. Shoguns are the leaders of their given district, or country, and are regarded as the most powerful samurai Exactly right, this is pretty much the exact nature of the military ranks. There is no such thing as a "ninja" class. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 27, 2018 0:11:15 GMT
Now here is an interesting question about ronin... those that did not commit seppuku, were they ever allowed to swear allegiance to a new lord after the death of their original? Was that common? Or was it pretty much the end of the line for their family if the lord died, once a ronin always a ronin? ... speaking of seppuku (this is a sensitive topic I know)... I understand that if a male samurai was told to commit seppuku by his lord that often his spouse also committed seppuku. I am curious if there were ever instances where an onna-bugeisha was told to commit seppuku DIRECTLY because of something *she did and not her husband? In that case would the husband also commit seppuku or would he simply move on with his life and re-marry? The latter sounds more realistic but I am curious. Now that is a head-scratcher. Typically, because of the male emphasis of the culture the answer is it depends. If an onna-bugeisha REALLY ticked off her superiors, her husband may also commit seppuku to save face and hopefully prevent his family's decline in political stature. Likely, he would most often re-marry or perhaps take up the tonsure of a monk. But onna-bugeisha are so under-researched that I can't really say with confidence. Of course a ronin could change allegiance. Depending on context, it might look bad though and he might be a peon as a result. |
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Post by avey on Mar 27, 2018 0:20:08 GMT
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 27, 2018 1:03:58 GMT
I'll phone a friend on this one and see if she has any ideas on these questions re: onna-bugeisha. Her area of expertise is women in feudal and early modern Japan, so she might have some good ideas. |
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Post by avey on Mar 27, 2018 1:12:50 GMT
I'll phone a friend on this one and see if she has any ideas on these questions re: onna-bugeisha. Her area of expertise is women in feudal and early modern Japan, so she might have some good ideas. DUDE you are THE MAN!! That is so cool! |
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 27, 2018 1:20:29 GMT
I'll let you know what she has to say, depending how busy she is at the moment might be a couple days or so. In the meantime, here's a good read about Hōjō Masako, who was inarguably Minamoto no Yoritomo's better (and more sensible) half. ColcuttNunShogun.pdf (1.75 MB) |
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Post by avey on Mar 27, 2018 2:47:43 GMT
I'll let you know what she has to say, depending how busy she is at the moment might be a couple days or so. In the meantime, here's a good read about Hōjō Masako, who was inarguably Minamoto no Yoritomo's better (and more sensible) half. This is super fascinating, not only does the author mention that the tokugawa period led to revisionist history in regards to the roles of women in previous eras, but they also back it up with good evidence. Sounds like Masako was extremely influential and powerful in her day... being the power behind the throne of her two shogun sons and even managing to hold onto this power (in some respects) after their deaths. That really flies in the face of the stereotypical depictions of women in feudal Japan that we know of from later periods. Makes me wonder if in the later periods it was *just the stereotype that changed, or if the reality of their lives changed to fit the stereotype. It does seem that the onna-bugeisha hit their zenith in the kamakura period, but those 19th century portraits seem to suggest that they held on to more influence (or at least respect) through the eras than the history books lead on. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Mar 29, 2018 21:29:35 GMT
Definitely a mix of both. On the one hand, the re-writing of previous events, and the other hand the culture and revisionism influencing events of the period. The Edo Period possessed a culture that was fairly secular and revisionist, this is where a lot of the mystique of the sword as the primary weapon of the samurai came to fruition from cultural trends of the time.
A fun example of this is to compare classical artwork of bushi throughout history. Depictions of warriors with emphasis on the sword is less common than art depicting yari, naginata, yumi, etc. It's during the Edo Period that paintings of lone samurai fighting wolves and the like pop up, often for symbolic effect.
Still waiting on the reply re: onna-bugeisha. Will let you know when that pops up.
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Post by zabazagobo on Apr 18, 2018 17:59:55 GMT
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 18, 2018 18:25:47 GMT
I'll let you know what she has to say, depending how busy she is at the moment might be a couple days or so. In the meantime, here's a good read about Hōjō Masako, who was inarguably Minamoto no Yoritomo's better (and more sensible) half. This is super fascinating, not only does the author mention that the tokugawa period led to revisionist history in regards to the roles of women in previous eras, but they also back it up with good evidence. Sounds like Masako was extremely influential and powerful in her day... being the power behind the throne of her two shogun sons and even managing to hold onto this power (in some respects) after their deaths. That really flies in the face of the stereotypical depictions of women in feudal Japan that we know of from later periods. Makes me wonder if in the later periods it was *just the stereotype that changed, or if the reality of their lives changed to fit the stereotype. It does seem that the onna-bugeisha hit their zenith in the kamakura period, but those 19th century portraits seem to suggest that they held on to more influence (or at least respect) through the eras than the history books lead on. I hate to spoil any illusions here, but the Meiji-period photos were most likely posed for tourist postcards using ummmm.........models. Entire series of recreations of what samurai life was supposed to have looked like (myth-building involved here) started appearing circa 1870, including a well-known set of an entire staged seppuku ceremony complete with fake blood. My impression from studying Japanese history is that (as in most traditional cultures) full-time women warriors were always a remarkable exception, worth writing into a chronicle, rather than a rule, and limited to certain times and special situations within the culture. I suspect that most of them were well-to-do female clan chiefs (in itself unusual) making a statement during wartime to encourage the men to fight. |
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Post by avey on Apr 18, 2018 18:58:57 GMT
You are absolutely right, those pictures could be total BS... they definitely look staged, but I kinda went the other direction thinking that back then the only folks who could afford to have their photo taken may have been wealthy upper class people recording their visage for posterity. But it could also have been business folks trying to make a buck.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 19, 2018 19:42:53 GMT
I am not going to go into debating how many women fought on the battlefields etc. but here are couple of researched facts. And yes famous warrior women in medieval Japan were pretty rare. I believe there is not a surviving naginata that would be even allegedly track down to being used by Tomoe Gozen. (Knutsen's book on polearms claims so but I believe Markus Sesko and his research over Knutsen). But there are two that by legend were in the posession of Shizuka Gozen. You can read about those two from Markus' blog about legends surrounding Japanese swords (to which he uploaded articles from his two books to be freely read). japaneseswordlegends.wordpress.com/2015/10/01/from-women-geese-and-naginata/Here is the armor of Tsuruhime,  It is preserved in Ōyamazumi Jinja and it's from earlier half of 1500's. |
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Post by avey on Apr 19, 2018 19:45:38 GMT
Yea that armor looks like it was made for hips and boobies, I don't think your average samurai was rocking those.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 20, 2018 0:25:23 GMT
I dont' know if you ever got the question of Ronin answered yet, but from what I read the disposition of a Ronin was "it depends".
I've read accounts of Samurai committing seppuku immediately upon the death of their lord to show loyalty and avoid becoming Ronin, I've also read accounts of Samurai simply swearing loyalty to the deceased lord's brother/son/nephew and carrying on as normal. I've also read accounts of Ronin getting revenge, then committing seppuku. Other accounts have Ronin not bothering to find another lord and simply working their own lands, while yet other accounts record Samurai wanting to commit seppuku, but were not given permission to do so by the Daimyo- and as such they became outlaws and lived lives as brigands or thugs for hire.
So yeah, it depends a great deal on the circumstances whether or not a Samurai would become a Ronin or commit seppuku, or if the Ronin would pledge loyalty to another lord, or if they would free-lance as mercenaries. There seems to be no real hard and fast rule about this. But think about it for a moment, Samurai were highly trained fighters as well as public administrators and bureaucrats that were worth more alive than dead, so it seems to me that they would try to find ways to keep them upright and breathing....but not always.
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