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Post by otack on Feb 7, 2018 23:24:53 GMT
By way of a 'how do you do' I thought I would throw out a query for more information on a sword I inherited. This comes from a relative who traveled through the Philippines in the late 1800s and came back with all sorts of things like daggers, machetes, spears, shields, masks, and two swords. This sword always spoke to me, likely due to the edge damage from apparent contact with another blade and the great feel it has in the hand. I'm trying to scrounge up the journal entry talking more about it but in the meanwhile here are some pictures. My recollection is that it was illegal for the natives to own during Spanish occupation and thus was hidden, which may be where it picked up the nasty curve. Definitely not the best heat treatment and a soft blade, but I find the style quite interesting for the blade and furniture. I should have left the original patina but being a dumb kid I tried to polish up the blade a bit. Other than ''Spanish Sword", anyone have a clue what this may be?
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Post by otack on Feb 8, 2018 1:26:23 GMT
Picture of the other sword for fun. In much better shape but less 'character' Are they both types of 19th century 'espada ancha', Spanish colonial swords? Attachments:
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Post by otack on Feb 8, 2018 2:00:05 GMT
Some stats on my sword.
Overall length: 31.5" Blade length: 26.5" Blade width at hilt: 1" Spine thickness at hilt: 1/4"
Spine tapers to around 1/8" at tip, the thickness of the blade. Hard to tell if the tip was sharpened front and back or if it was a false edge
Weight: Scale for weighting my baby shows 1 lb 3.8 oz... That seems awfully light even though this feels like nothing in the hand
Not a lot of heft to it to be a 'naval cutlass'. I'd love to find a reproduction of something similar.
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pgandy
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Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Feb 8, 2018 2:30:55 GMT
Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Croccifixio on Feb 8, 2018 2:53:23 GMT
It's a myth that natives were not allowed to own or wear swords. They were, since it was a big part of their agricultural livelihood, but there were regulations in places involving things such as length. The second sword looks like something from the Batangas province, Luzon island. www.antiquesnavigator.com/archive/2017/02/02/262823699203.jpgThat first one is a little harder to pinpoint. It looks like the guard is repurposed? The blade is very Luzon as well, perhaps the Tagalog Matulis? www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18768Not 100% sold on this, but I have a similar blade that came from a Luzon collection (though mine seems shorter)
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Post by otack on Feb 8, 2018 3:04:59 GMT
Tagalog might make sense, that is ringing bells from the journal. One of the daggers is a flattened triangle cross-section that seems to match the Luzon island area too! That would then make the swords not actually Spanish but local?
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Post by otack on Feb 8, 2018 3:51:38 GMT
Dang Croccifixio, I need to get that journal from the trip. Should have more information in the next few days. This thread over on vikingsword has a good collection shot that would point to both of them being from Luzon. As are a lot of the other items that my relative brought back from the expedition like the daggers and axes.
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Post by Croccifixio on Feb 8, 2018 4:13:55 GMT
"Tagalog" is actually the language in the Tagalog region that comprises a majority of the Luzon island. It forms the bulk of the national language "Filipino." But as a term, it refers to an ethnolinguistic culture that also includes a bladed weapon culture that's quite distinct from other groups in the country.
And the Spaniards who arrived and conquered the Philippines were pretty quick to adapt to many things, including bladed weapons, so you will see remounted local blades on Spanish hilts or Spanish blades on local hilts. There are distinguishing marks, however, and if you have good pictures they're easy enough to see.
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Post by otack on Feb 8, 2018 4:37:41 GMT
I was checking all over for any markings on either blade or hilt and haven't managed to find anything yet. Going to try a good spritz of oil and better lighting tomorrow and see if anything pops out. It may either be buried in patina, erased, or never there in the first place
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 8, 2018 5:30:20 GMT
I was checking all over for any markings on either blade or hilt and haven't managed to find anything yet. Going to try a good spritz of oil and better lighting tomorrow and see if anything pops out. It may either be buried in patina, erased, or never there in the first place I say give it a good polish. Not mirror or polishing it up to modern standards, but enough to see all the imperfections and hammer marks. Looks like you have very nice pieces of Spanish and Philippines history. If they didn't have a family background (especially that recent/traceable) I'd make you an offer on them. Really cool swords. Also, welcome I like to use 3 in 1 oil and a red brown sanding sponge, followed by 500, then 1000, then 1500, automotive papers. Gives the steel a nice luster.
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Post by Croccifixio on Feb 8, 2018 5:40:58 GMT
You don't have to go to the extent of polishing it if you want. If there are no engravings, then it's almost certainly a local blade. So at that point you go by the overall shape and dimensions of the blade, type of grind, and maybe the hilt will have more clues.
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Post by otack on Feb 8, 2018 14:24:06 GMT
Since I already knocked off the original patina off the blade I think I'll go ahead and give it a bit of a polish and get some rust off the hilt as well. Hardly a professional restoration but a bit of elbow grease to a family heirloom seems appropriate. I'm interested to see what it looks like. Definitely no blade engraving, so I'm going to say I'm pretty confident it is a local blade. The hilt seems to be a bit of an oddity compared to the other bolos I've been seeing. Reminds me more of a knockoff of a British naval Cutlass.
For the red brown sanding sponge, I assume that is a Scotch-Brite very fine grade sanding hand pad or similar?
I adore the feel of this sword. With how unique it is there is not going to be an exact production replica out there, but do you guys have any thoughts on what might come close in feel?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 8, 2018 14:45:18 GMT
For the red brown sanding sponge, I assume that is a Scotch-Brite very fine grade sanding hand pad or similar? I adore the feel of this sword. With how unique it is there is not going to be an exact production replica out there, but do you guys have any thoughts on what might come close in feel? For the sanding sponge I mean a 3M 150 grit. As far as a reproduction, I've never handled it so can't tell you there, but other folks will be able to help you if you upload the stats of the blade, like point of balance, and the thickness of the blade at the base, midway up, and around 1 inch from the tip. Judging from your pics I think some of the very light late 19th century officers sabres, or perhaps the M1895 trooper may come close, but perhaps not. You could also have a copy of it made, there a bunch of good smiths here.
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Post by otack on Feb 8, 2018 15:32:47 GMT
I've got a few of the basic stats up above but I'll work on getting more after work, like point of balance and such. Hilariously my Google search led me back here to your own collection Jordan! Beautiful swords!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Feb 8, 2018 17:07:17 GMT
Thanks I really need to update my collection thread though haha. Also, if the blade length is similar you could also try modifying a Windlass sabre with an angle grinder. The Hungarian sabre comes to mind as it's flat ground, but the hilt furniture would need replacing.
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Post by Croccifixio on Feb 9, 2018 4:50:44 GMT
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Post by otack on Feb 9, 2018 13:53:31 GMT
I definitely see the similarities. Luzono blade with 'Spanish influenced hilt' seems like a distinct probability. Do the words 'buneng' or 'burung' mean anything to you guys? I have an item list that has those as the 'native names' for two of the 'war bolos'. Google has been less than helpful on those two.
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Post by Croccifixio on Feb 9, 2018 17:17:00 GMT
Post a pic. A Barong (also known as Barung) is a very famous type of Moro blade and is my personal favorite. Buneng is a dialect’s (Ilokano/Ilocano) version of “bolo” which is a pretty generic term tbh.
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Post by otack on Feb 9, 2018 21:46:42 GMT
Have some new info! I'm working on typing up some of the letters as I read through things. Looks like my relative, C. Romney McKee was a ' Thomasite', part of the ~540 or so teachers who traveled to the Philippines in August of 1901 on the USAT Thomas. Working on getting a picture of that barong for you. Well at least SAILED with the Thomasites on the USAT Thomas in August 1901, but as a teacher with the War Department Office of Insular Affairs.
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Post by Croccifixio on Feb 10, 2018 9:10:29 GMT
In the wiki article you linked their provincial assignments included Albay, Catanduanes, Camarines Norte, Camarines Sur, Sorsogon, Masbate, Samar, Zambales, Aparri, Jolo, Negros, Cebu, Dumaguete, Bataan, Batangas, Pangasinan and Tarlac.
If that is a real Barong, then Jolo is likely the place where he got it since it’s the only town in the Sulu group of islands where Barongs originated from/were used.
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