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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 9, 2016 13:25:25 GMT
Haha, no "what's better" question! Just wanted to lure you into this thread. I hope polearms are not so prone to quarrels (in discussions of course) like the holy grail: katana vs.european swords.
I see some similarities in different groups of polarms in europe and asia. Form follows function everywhere.
We have spears/pikes and spearlike more thrusting polarms: Pike, yari, ji.
We have shorter cutters but not so good thrusters: Nagamaki, podao, glaife, poleaxe, lochaberaxe. Perhaps you can count the dane axe or the big greatswords to this. Perhaps we should here distinguish between the more "axe (hammer) on a pole" and the more "sword/falchion on a pole" types.
We have longer cut and thrust polearms: Guandao, naginata, halberts, bills.
Excuse me for not mention all european or asian (thai, korean etc.) or african types or for making some mistakes, correct me then.
Afaik some polearms were more used in one on one fights, some more in battle formations.
Not to forget a question: Were some asian polearms used very different to their european "counterparts" in shape?
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Post by scottw on Oct 9, 2016 14:44:02 GMT
The naginata is far superior to the halberd. Thats all I know for sure..
Ehehe. Sorry, couldn't resist. Just started looking at polearms myself, there seems to be a lot of variety. Hopefully a good polearm discussion will start up. I do like the naginata though, lots of blade on it.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 9, 2016 14:52:36 GMT
I know this temptation. I find those shorter swordlike polearms fascinating, f.e. nagamaki, shorter pole, longer head.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 18:42:36 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_weaponSome basis of evidence and reference was necessary. I have a ❤️/ 💔relationship with poleweapons. Sometimes I love to use them and train them, but I firmly believe that an experienced swordsman or staff fighter (or even unarmed fighter) can easily overpower them. They are best used against multiple opponents like rushing into an army headlong like a one man army. Against a single or up to 5-7 people, manipulation is quite easy and it's best to adapt something with medium to short range. But that's saying about experienced people. Untrained? Use a spear or other thing-on-a-stick and charge......doesn't make much difference to what TYPE you are using.
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Post by howler on Oct 9, 2016 20:47:39 GMT
The naginata is far superior to the halberd. Thats all I know for sure.. Ehehe. Sorry, couldn't resist. Just started looking at polearms myself, there seems to be a lot of variety. Hopefully a good polearm discussion will start up. I do like the naginata though, lots of blade on it. Damn you scottw, how DARE you say the nagi...just kidding, I'm trying to fire up the debate (longsword, katana...45acp, 9mm style) . I think the yari (long bladed spear) is superior to the naginata, as it is double edged and can stab better. A good shaped halberd or billhook can chop and hook better than a yari. This is a good thread, as you have a WILD selection of European designs pitted against an underrated and misunderstood polearm history from (mainly) Asia (particularly China). I just started buying a selection of various polearms/spears recently, so I MUST be an expert.
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Post by howler on Oct 9, 2016 20:51:45 GMT
I know this temptation. I find those shorter swordlike polearms fascinating, f.e. nagamaki, shorter pole, longer head. Yup, putting a short pole on a lot of heavy machete, billhook, spear (like Cold Steel Assegai), etc...and you get amazing new abilities with the reach, leverage, power. I just ordered a few socket machete and a socket billhook (and other nice stuff) from Aranyik, and you may wish to check out their site (a cool guy named Miles is the owner).
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 9, 2016 21:19:49 GMT
Not to forget a question: Were some asian polearms used very different to their european "counterparts" in shape? There was more use of short polearms (pudao/polearm-dadao, nagamaki) to equip entire units on the battlefield. Their specialty was to get in close, fast, and slice up the enemy in close combat. Most examples I know of (Japanese Sengoku Jidai, late Ming and post-Ming anti-Qing forces (Koxinga)) were considered elite units. (Compare Spanish use of sword and shield in the tercio.) Ming Dynasty siege polearms. Very large, wielded by two men. (While you find European counterparts in shape, size is a different story, so not really an answer to your question.) Spears in combined arms formations. The mandarin duck formation: where the spears are tasked with the killing, the bamboo-branch spears keep the enemy at a safe distance, and the sword-and-shield men and trident men stop any who get past the spearmen. (Trident + sword and shield is a good combination, since the trident can trap the opponent's weapon long enough for the swordsman to do nasty stuff.) East Asian cavalry lances were often used two-handed (also used couched, at least in Qing China). Don't know how far west this tradition of two-handed use went.
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Post by howler on Oct 9, 2016 21:22:16 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_weaponSome basis of evidence and reference was necessary. I have a ❤️/ 💔relationship with poleweapons. Sometimes I love to use them and train them, but I firmly believe that an experienced swordsman or staff fighter (or even unarmed fighter) can easily overpower them. They are best used against multiple opponents like rushing into an army headlong like a one man army. Against a single or up to 5-7 people, manipulation is quite easy and it's best to adapt something with medium to short range. But that's saying about experienced people. Untrained? Use a spear or other thing-on-a-stick and charge......doesn't make much difference to what TYPE you are using. Context would be VERY important when putting up a matchup between various weapons. On the longsword vs. katana thread (still going on as we speak) I am extremely careful in making sure that the combatants are EQUALLY matched, otherwise the "thought experiment" is rendered moot. Put me (a shmuck with the greatest polearm of all time...you name it) up against an expert fighter with a cup...and that cup will be promptly stuck up my poop shoot. That said, (you know where I'm going, don't you) a sword is a sidearm (handgun) and a polearm is the main battlefield weapon (rifle). Never take a handgun to a gun fight. I think you know all this, of course, so I'm just harping for the people reading these posts, Asad. Your right in saying that untrained, you use "a spear or other thing-on-a-stick and charge" (as it is almost ingrained into Homo Sapiens) vs. grabbing a sword, that certainly takes some skill to become proficient. Another problem I see is that a much larger percentage of the population are into swords vs. polearms (sidearm thing...easier to carry, etc...). Not a lot of polearm instruction/teaching out there to actually become a "master" at. I have no doubt, however, that pitting two equally matched experts, the polearm wielder would prevail.
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Post by howler on Oct 9, 2016 21:31:14 GMT
Not to forget a question: Were some asian polearms used very different to their european "counterparts" in shape? There was more use of short polearms (pudao/polearm-dadao, nagamaki) to equip entire units on the battlefield. Their specialty was to get in close, fast, and slice up the enemy in close combat. Most examples I know of (Japanese Sengoku Jidai, late Ming and post-Ming anti-Qing forces (Koxinga)) were considered elite units. (Compare Spanish use of sword and shield in the tercio.) Ming Dynasty siege polearms. Very large, wielded by two men. (While you find European counterparts in shape, size is a different story, so not really an answer to your question.) Spears in combined arms formations. The mandarin duck formation: where the spears are tasked with the killing, the bamboo-branch spears keep the enemy at a safe distance, and the sword-and-shield men and trident men stop any who get past the spearmen. (Trident + sword and shield is a good combination, since the trident can trap the opponent's weapon long enough for the swordsman to do nasty stuff.) East Asian cavalry lances were often used two-handed (also used couched, at least in Qing China). Don't know how far west this tradition of two-handed use went. Cool. Very similar to European formation of Pike (distance), halberd, billhook, spear, (medium), great sword, longsword, etc... Those short polearms wielded by large goups sound like a nightmare, and very similar to the early twentieth century Chinese use of the Dadao (easy to use and equipt) against the Japanese (I think).
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stormmaster
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I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,651
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Post by stormmaster on Oct 10, 2016 0:23:23 GMT
the chinese qiang is my personal favorite pole arm, but its really hard to find for some reason
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Post by howler on Oct 10, 2016 0:53:09 GMT
the chinese qiang is my personal favorite pole arm, but its really hard to find for some reason All qiang means is "spear", so its difficulty to find would be a shame. The spear does not get the credit it deserves.
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stormmaster
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I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,651
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Post by stormmaster on Oct 10, 2016 0:56:17 GMT
the chinese qiang is my personal favorite pole arm, but its really hard to find for some reason All qiang means is "spear", so its difficulty to find would be a shame. The spear does not get the credit it deserves. i love all the chinese spears, the slender ones at least
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Post by howler on Oct 10, 2016 1:02:13 GMT
All qiang means is "spear", so its difficulty to find would be a shame. The spear does not get the credit it deserves. i love all the chinese spears, the slender ones at least You sound more of a traditional spear man than larger, heavier polearm (like yari, with longer blade for chopping/slashing). I think spears, generally are a bit longer, as they are lighter, and put more emphasis into speedy point work.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 2:39:29 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_weaponSome basis of evidence and reference was necessary. I have a ❤️/ 💔relationship with poleweapons. Sometimes I love to use them and train them, but I firmly believe that an experienced swordsman or staff fighter (or even unarmed fighter) can easily overpower them. They are best used against multiple opponents like rushing into an army headlong like a one man army. Against a single or up to 5-7 people, manipulation is quite easy and it's best to adapt something with medium to short range. But that's saying about experienced people. Untrained? Use a spear or other thing-on-a-stick and charge......doesn't make much difference to what TYPE you are using. Context would be VERY important when putting up a matchup between various weapons. On the longsword vs. katana thread (still going on as we speak) I am extremely careful in making sure that the combatants are EQUALLY matched, otherwise the "thought experiment" is rendered moot. Put me (a shmuck with the greatest polearm of all time...you name it) up against an expert fighter with a cup...and that cup will be promptly stuck up my poop shoot. That said, (you know where I'm going, don't you) a sword is a sidearm (handgun) and a polearm is the main battlefield weapon (rifle). Never take a handgun to a gun fight. I think you know all this, of course, so I'm just harping for the people reading these posts, Asad. Your right in saying that untrained, you use "a spear or other thing-on-a-stick and charge" (as it is almost ingrained into (censored) Sapiens) vs. grabbing a sword, that certainly takes some skill to become proficient. Another problem I see is that a much larger percentage of the population are into swords vs. polearms (sidearm thing...easier to carry, etc...). Not a lot of polearm instruction/teaching out there to actually become a "master" at. I have no doubt, however, that pitting two equally matched experts, the polearm wielder would prevail. Point Sustained. However, even with equally trained opponents, in believe it depends. But yeah, that is what is most probable. I was just telling how I would prefer shorter polearms with wicked sharp bits and keep a sword and a tomahawk with me... not the point of thread though, so I am gonna 🤐. I have never understood the debate of comparing weapons or styles either. But saying that is like stepping into a minefield.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Oct 10, 2016 3:08:12 GMT
As usual, in a vacuum, comparisons don't mean much. In a formation, pikes are great. In open ranks, more complex weapons are able to shine. The polearms that speak most to me are ones with options. I am a fan of weapons which have options and are effective against armor, because a crow's beak will also kill the crap out of an unarmoured opponent too. I'm fond of weapons like the Lucerne hammer and the goedendag. Blades are much more circumstantial than spikes and bludgeons. I like spikes and bludgeons.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 10, 2016 5:28:05 GMT
The mandarin duck formation is a nice combination of different equiped soldiers for different attack/defence tasks in such a formation. I assume in the early medieval shield-wall spearmen and dane-axe-men stood behind the first line with shields.
Very long pikes can be used of several lines one after another like Alexanders macedonians.
There is a problem with chinese polearm's names with different spelling in european characters, so it would be a good idea to use the wikipedia article as a reference.
An interesting aspect I found is the use of a smaller form of naginata (ko-naginata) by samurai-women. I just saw a documentary about such samurai-women fighting in the emperor/shogun civil war after the forced opening of japan.
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Post by scottw on Oct 10, 2016 6:01:27 GMT
Im going to have to look that up, that's fascinating. I would never have thought Japanese women would be allowed to fight by the men.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 10, 2016 6:21:02 GMT
Afaik fighting and esp. fighting together with men was extremely unusual. But some or many (?) trained.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Oct 10, 2016 7:31:34 GMT
An interesting aspect I found is the use of a smaller form of naginata (ko-naginata) by samurai-women. From artwork, women were usually shown with ordinary naginata, rather than small naginata. (Tomoe Gozen is an exception - she's often shown with a really big naginata.) There were plenty of quite small naginata made during the late Edo Period. But these were for men, as ceremonial/parade weapons, for when the daimyo had to go to Edo every couple of years, for their accompanying retainers to carry. These are sometimes (incorrectly) described as "women's naginata".
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 10, 2016 7:42:30 GMT
We also have to take into account which polearms were used in conjunction with heavy armour. Some halberds for instance might be rubbish weapons if you did not have armour - shorter than a spear, slower than a sword - but in full plate might be the ultimate weapon (can't be blocked by lighter weapons, is maneuverable in close quarters, etc).
Anyway, pole weapons are indeed the bread and butter weapon of the pre-gun era alongside projectile weapons like bows and arrows. Wish they got more respect.
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