|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 15, 2016 10:44:04 GMT
Hammer grip on a Viking hilt is very nice for in-close slicing draw-cuts. No problem for the wrist, because you keep close to a 90 degree angle between blade and forearm. Works even for a big 1.6kg sword.
But yes, hammer to handshake transition is useful/needed for some types of cuts. From artwork, we know this was done with later Medieval swords. We know it can be done with Viking hilts - not just you, but many people can do it. I find this transition easier with later hilts - perhaps this is one thing that led to the changes in hilt styles.
On a tulwar, you can't do the hammer to handshake transition. Tulwars work. So it should be possible (is possible!) to fight using a Viking sword while staying purely in hammer grip.
|
|
SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
|
Post by SanMarc on Feb 16, 2016 6:49:31 GMT
The tulwar really is no comparesen as it is a curved blade.. And a dedicated fighting style..
The single hand viking sword can be adaptive to different styles of fighting... The sword hilted langsax not so much...
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 16, 2016 7:56:15 GMT
|
|
SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
|
Post by SanMarc on Feb 16, 2016 8:02:36 GMT
And they use Those tulwars in a different way... I have owned one of the curved tulwars.. Very distinctive way of fighting... I have training in fencing with three types of swords and JSA .. Getting into viking live steel has been an education....
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 16, 2016 8:05:22 GMT
We don't know how Viking swords were used. We don't have clear enough art, and we don't have clear enough written descriptions. We can guess based on what we know about later Medieval swords (which have different hilts), and we can guess based on what works for us. But in the end, we don't know how Vikings used them. (Maybe they did use them like tulwars ...)
|
|
|
Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Feb 16, 2016 8:58:11 GMT
From a review of a sword to a review of fighting styles.
|
|
SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
|
Post by SanMarc on Feb 16, 2016 19:34:35 GMT
And that's why this is fun... :p
Read up on H.R. Ellis Davidson's "The Sword in Anglosaxson England... Shows many drawings from manuscripts and tapistrys that show the many different grips that were used.. And references to extended grip palming the pommel to get extra reach....
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 16, 2016 21:17:39 GMT
Figure 114? Ever seen the original?
Anyway, (1) The references to palming the pommel are to modern experimentation, so doesn't tell us what Vikings did.
(2) Most Viking sword grips aren't too short for modern adult male hands. Most of the grips in Peirce are 8-10cm, and more are longer than 10cm than shorter than 8cm. 8cm easily fits the median US Army male hand. So the discussion of very short grips in Ellis Davidson isn't relevant.
(3) It doesn't address the point, anyway. Even if a Viking sword can be used in a grip other than hammer grip (and I know it can be used in other grips), that says nothing about whether a Viking sword can be used using only hammer grip. I can hold a French-grip fencing foil in hammer grip rather than the proper foil grip, but that doesn't mean that the weapon can't be used using only foil grip.
Try fighting with a Viking sword using tulwar-style. Short-range slicing draw cuts, protected by your shield.
For long-range sniping blows, you need to shift from hammer grip.
|
|
SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
|
Post by SanMarc on Feb 16, 2016 21:53:46 GMT
There are refs to viking age holding the pomell.. Read to book I refers to.. Shows the manuscript drawings from antiquity
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 17, 2016 4:45:07 GMT
On first look, I only found the references to modern people holding the pommel. Do you know where it refers to Viking-age pommel-holding?
The actual drawing in the book is modern. The original would be interesting to see. Knowing the date of the original would be interesting. Knowing the context of the illustration is very important. Somebody sitting in a chair holding a sword like that is one thing; somebody fighting while holding the sword like that is another, quite different, thing. Not enough of the original is in the modern re-drawing to tell.
In any case, points (2) and (3) still stand.
|
|
SanMarc
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,193
|
Post by SanMarc on Feb 17, 2016 7:15:30 GMT
Do you have H.R. Ellis Davidson's "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England" on hand? It show the many drawings from manuscripts.. And give the references in the appendix.. The book also shows continental and Scandinavia swords from the time period.. Well worth reading... Not a work of fiction...
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 17, 2016 8:11:36 GMT
Have a copy, but not with me at this time, so I can't check the reference for fig 114. With a quick look this morning, the only pommel-gripping stuff I found other than fig 114 was the reference to Oakeshott's (modern) suggestion. If anybody is wondering what fig 114 shows, it shows this: Looking at the gap between fingers and guard, it looks like the entire hand would fit on the grip, if the illustration is accurate. (If the illustration isn't accurate, then perhaps we shouldn't try to conclude anything from it.) Edit: Now that I am with my copy of the book, I see that the only reference given for fig 114 is that Oakeshott drew it.
|
|
|
Post by Novice_Surgery on Feb 18, 2016 2:28:33 GMT
If you'd like to discuss proper gripping techniques this is not the right forum, that would be the general discussions section, as this thread is about the sanmarc gladius. Thank you
|
|
|
Post by Novice_Surgery on Feb 20, 2016 20:45:40 GMT
Cutting video added!
|
|