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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 2, 2016 20:06:10 GMT
Uhm...troupes a cheval means all mounted units: hussars, dragoons, cuirassiers but also the mounted Gendarmes, horse artillery and mounted supply regiments. Besides I believe mounted infantry officers were an archaic concept at the time and no longer existed. Yeah, troupes a cheval translates into, "enlisted mounted servicemen". A generic phrase. By the time 1823 swords were issued they were only relevant to weddings, funerals and honor guards. Colonials said screw it, we're keepin the 1822s.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 2, 2016 21:14:25 GMT
,, Colonials said screw it, we're keepin the 1822s''. Very wise. Okay, I surrender. Pity l'Hoste does not show it. Prussian Artillery sabres in WWII. I like this. Also, they make excellent targets.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 3, 2016 0:17:05 GMT
Okay, I surrender. Pity l'Hoste does not show it. I know. Honestly I've never seen that mark before. I'm totally disinterested in any sword past 1914 ( although I seem to have acquired two of the 1923s). I don't think I have a french cav weapon that says d'officier a troupe de cheval any where in my collection. SO this is perhaps a post war one sword fits everybody change (?)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 3:23:35 GMT
Okay, I surrender. Pity l'Hoste does not show it. I know. Honestly I've never seen that mark before. I'm totally disinterested in any sword past 1914 ( although I seem to have acquired two of the 1923s). I don't think I have a french cav weapon that says d'officier a troupe de cheval any where in my collection. SO this is perhaps a post war one sword fits everybody change (?) Precisely, the M1923 was meant to narrow all Armed Forces swords to just 2 models: one for mounted troops officers and the other for foot/dismounted troops (Line and Light infantry, Foot Gendarmes, Engineers, medical personnel and etc). The back of the blade reflected such changes in the years 1926-1939. It was meant to be but after the 1940 debacle this project was short-lived and made way for another generation of resurrected swords and sabres (1822-1961 for the actual Republican Guard, F1 for the Army).
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 3, 2016 9:52:14 GMT
With that out of the way we can continue with polishing and other sword related stuff.
Sunday morning moaning.
I came down this morning and looked at 2 new upgraded racks and the rows and clusters of sabres and whatnot still on the floor, I have narrow paths now, like animals make in the jungle, from siesta couch to desk to hall, two other racks holding a forest of smallswords and sabres, most of this jumble still to be cleaned and cared for, rows on the floor blocking the hearth and the archelogie collection and the 19th C. books, those few polished Frenchies didn't even make a dent and thought about calling in on the local dealer and clearing the whole shebang out. Away with them. Clean house. Air to breathe. All that junk in one go, wooooosh. Back to a normal existence of bookworm. Stuff that fits in things called bookcases, which I can hardly reach cause I have to negotiate some 20 steel implements that eye me with that ,,Don't tread on me'' look. Bastards. A dealer mailed me he found another volume of the 1717 Pedrosi, so I had to find and check mine to see whether it had the same binding. That simple action amounted to rearranging the sabres that block said bookcase and then with one foot here and one foot in another small clearing doing a sort of complicated Chinese contortion aka balancing act to do my task. Its like working in the bloody circus. Naw, General Ulahn needs to think up a strategy pronto. The Anarchists have taken over the asylum! I shudder to think what would happen if I invited that nice lady from across the street in for tea. There be friendly but stern white coated huge gentlemen gently goading me to the waiting van in a flash. Where did I go wrong?
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Post by Dave Kelly on Jan 3, 2016 12:35:11 GMT
With that out of the way we can continue with polishing and other sword related stuff. Sunday morning moaning. Poor Uhlan. It's genetic. You are a "collector". I didn't say "hoarder". Those lost soul demented ancients on television, who bunker into a maze of unattended trash, trying to stave off reality. You are more of a cultural black hole; embracing and preserving cultural history, and in some cases now, rolling on the floor with it in some sort of disturbing voluptuary ritual. Distracted by the obsessive cumpulsive catching up on classic steel? I have a solution. Just mail it all to me. I can reconfigure the house to make it all work. (Just throw out most of the furniture...). Fear not; I'll glad pay the shipping costs....
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Post by aronk on Jan 3, 2016 14:13:20 GMT
Worry not Ulahn, we'll all be happy to assist you in cleaning up your house! If you'll just ship me your ANXIII and the M1822 and M1854 collections, along with the French smallswords, I'll be glad to do my part!
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 3, 2016 16:45:38 GMT
Surrounded by vultures and hyenas I am. Wolves and Tasmanian Devils gnawing at my door. No compassion at all. OOOOOOW! Ceasar hanging out with a crowd of Brutusess. Marching ants. Gang of freeloading Socialist lizards!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 17:26:55 GMT
Hail Caesar! I might turn out to be Octavian and avenge you, no? 8D
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 25, 2022 22:39:05 GMT
Well gentlemen I once again appear to be Lazarus as I continually raise dead threads pursuing my own collection. This was one of the ones I'd always wanted to get. And the good/bad news is I was able to find a St Cyr marked 95cm version (sans scabbard) for 245 European rupees. Not the best example but an example nonetheless. Should be here in a few days. Some pics below (most on the hilt, I don't think ANYONE gets these for the blades) I have always wondered in my darker moments, if one were to take the Swedish M1893 troopers blade, remove just enough weight off the blade (likely via hollow grinding to preserve rigidity) to move the POB back 1/2-1" and make it a bit more backweighted and lighter in the hand but still give it a good ability to cut (or at least better than the p08/12 or the Patton) and have it be the best last true cavalry pallasch. Of course, that would be abhorrent, to take an antique and ruin it. But on the other hand, the Swedish m1893s can be found cheaply and these aren't the rarest swords either. I fear the temptation to become Dr. Frankenstein may be too powerful to resist. But until that happens, we can only speculate. From the "too light to cut and too weak to thrust" 1896 to the Spadroonish Patton to the "hand lances" of the P08/12 to the "Jesus Christ you put a longsword blade on a sabre hilt" of the m1893 it seems everyone was dancing around the idea of what a perfect heavy cavalry sword should be. Somewhere in there, a combination of those features is the real answer. As a final gift I'll post some links to previously sold or for-sale 1896s including a bizarre copper or rose hold-hilted one below: Previously sold: www.catawiki.com/en/l/44442387-france-chatellerault-1896-oficial-de-caballeria-sabrewww.catawiki.com/en/l/36850107-france-1896-army-heer-dress-sabre-sword (Rose gold version) For sale: www.ebay.com/itm/275134409449?hash=item400f49eae9:g:H2IAAOSwY39h33h (4 days left and a $900 buy-in) Thank you all for fueling my addiction now that I am out of college and can afford such things!
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 26, 2022 7:20:25 GMT
www.wargm.org/armoury/index.php?mode=2&cat=N%2FA&item=338 I have also found this, of which the museum lists as an Indian made replica. While there is only one photo I am curious as to their reasoning? I have not seen any other examples of spotting a "fake" m1896, and the work involved in both the hilt and relatively complex blade lead me to think that would be cost-prohibitive. I may email them for more information or photos at the very least in order to better understand common forgeries. EDIT also another here: sallyantiques.co.uk/product/19th-century-french-light-cavalry-sword-reproduction/This seems to be perplexing, not much I can tell that is actually different. Castings look decent but un-personalized on the pommel, grip is probably plastic in this case. Is it possible EmpireCostume commissioned a run of them? I'd like to learn more just to know what denotes a replica. EDIT again, I did find an EmpireCostume replica (https://en.empirecostume.com/sabre-d-officier-de-cavalerie-modele-1896-copie-garde-c294-t6-a14338.htm) and I think I have narrowed down some replica-specific details: -Casting on the outside of the guard will be close but just /slightly/ less than some of the originals -The portion of the plate near the ricasso has a pebbled surface (TBF originals have this too, not all of them but some) -Grip has this weird sickly shine to it like it's running a fever and getting clammy, someone get the grip some chicken noodle soup! -The spines of the blades BOTH say "Cavalry officer's saber model 1896, 2nd, national arms factory of Chatellerault, 9bre 1914" with a small E to the top right instead of a JH or B -This means that both blades are also 90cm -I see no initials or cipher or anything on the pommel as I said before, I would wager it is blank on the EmpireCostume example which seems to be abnormal from other examples I have seen, either filled in with more decorations or crests etc. It would seem that "Cavalry officer's saber model 1896, 2nd, national arms factory of Chatellerault, 9bre 1914" is the October 1813 for the model 1896 Regardless, it is 0108 in the morning, I have work in 5 hours 22 minutes and must try and get some sleep, thank you for bearing with me as I throw some blade shaped spaghetti at the wall
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 26, 2022 12:32:25 GMT
Mr. Donut, mucho thanks for the information! I did not know these were replicated. Huge bummer 'cause they will come on the market ,,for reelz''. But I have my doubts about the museum one being a replica. At least you have a very nice and original example. Any idea about how long this is going on, the replica M1896 stuff I mean?
Also: We will do our utmost and very best to make you go bankrupt and end up living under a bridge. That is what SBG is all about. Didn't you know that?
Cheers.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 27, 2022 19:05:03 GMT
Alright alright alright sword has arrived, expect photos later.
I think mine might be a rose gold example as it is much darker than my other brass hilts. Additionally a bit of brasso and then Autosol did clean it up a bit but it still retains the darker tone.
My blade is slightly bent and was bent the other way, it wiggles a bit but roughly is straight enough (like a fencing rapier for HEMA after a year or 2) and the point is within .5cm of straight. It was made in 1908 by the spine so we can say the foible fullers were still being produced through then. However, it is way too bendy for my tastes. If you are going to make a thrust oriented sabre, you best make it as stiff as you can. Hell, my Chilean m1890 with the 35" blade and the foible fuller is likely both a better cutter AND thruster because it is heavy and stiff and durable. This feels way too floppy to ever give me true confidence. Oh well, I've found another with scabbard for not too much more, maybe this hilt will be sacrificed for the greater good of my hypothetical I posited above.
The one thing I would like to know however, is whether I have small hands (I wear size medium gloves so I don't really think they are abnormally small) or if my guard is bigger. Having seen the photos I was expecting a dish hilt sized hilt. But no, mine is pretty good at covering my hand entirely. Not MASSIVELY like say a right hander using a British M1896 or the shell guards of the p08/12 or the 1913 Patton, but for an Ambidextrous hilt it's as good or better than my Swiss 1867 Officers (Cavalry) or other mid-century ambi cavalry hilts.
I have gotten a rough guard width of 13cm with a point of balance of 9.5cm. It does FEEL good in the hand, just a shame about the lightness (or relative lightness, the guard does seem to be quite heavy) of the blade in terms of strength and durability especially the rigidity for thrusting because I can see what they were TRYING to do. Just...not done well at all.
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Post by bas on Jan 27, 2022 21:12:14 GMT
jimmy, that is an attractive sword. Congrats and please show us more!
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 28, 2022 0:51:07 GMT
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 28, 2022 0:54:43 GMT
And my lanky skinny hand gripping the hilt in what I assume is the correct position for the French Cavalry (or else why make a flat back?) I am off to fencing, will try the grip with gloves on and see if that changes much. Maybe my hands are just too narrow, maybe I got a wider than normal hilt?
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 28, 2022 2:31:51 GMT
And as promised a gloved photo. Is it as protective as a Patton or P08/12? Not at all. But it's actually a good 1/2" wider or so on either side than my m1893 Swede. I'm more concerned about the gaping holes but then in a charge I don't think anyone would be able to target those lol.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 28, 2022 4:50:00 GMT
You scored a nice one. Brass alloy has a lot of red copper in it, hence the colour. Was an option when ordering. You are right with the blade being too Spadroon like.
,, I'm more concerned about the gaping holes but then in a charge I don't think anyone would be able to target those lol.''
In a charge you wouldn't want one of these period. Some teenie holes would be the least of your worries. Like you said, mount the basket on an M1854 or Préval blade and one would have a much better sword. Préval would be my choice. I bought one just for the basket design. Art Deco and famous in its own right. That basket makes for a very nice desk ornament too. Yup. The illustrious French Cavalry going all artsy fartsy in the end. Oh dear!
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 28, 2022 16:27:45 GMT
I managed to get a photo with the flash on, I don't want to damage the hilt but I'm not sure if that's plating or something else there, the darker stuff. Wish I hadn't gone over it with a microfiber cloth, looks like a small area has already had a brighter more silvery finish I can deal with brass all day but I want to be careful on this one as I'm not sure how to proceed.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jan 29, 2022 8:38:52 GMT
I see lots of verdigris and the usual dark brown patination. Guess if you clean this up, you'll get the standard yellow bronze colour. No rose colour basket here I guess by looking at the new picture. If you want to keep it as it now is, you could repair the rubbed light spots by rubbing some ammonia on those spots to get them dark again and wax the lot with Ren wax to arrest further oxidation. If you want to clean it all up, I would suggest Mothers and a soft toothbrush. Clean the mess with acetone and polish up by going over it with tods of toilet paper. This last works very well, even on steel blades. Personally I do not like the Mothers typical over the top shine like a $1.99 gold watch from the country fair, so I use Commandant Nr. 4. Easier to work with (it is more of a slurry) and it gives a much nicer tone than Mothers, but that is my hang up. I use Mothers on for instance an Officer blade as it removes the smallest scratches (it is very good at that) and then tone the Vegas look down with Commandant. Did it on an M1854 Officer blade (which will be posted soon) and with all the light reflecting in those straight walled fullers it now shines like an analogue Light Sabre. Pull the darn sword out of the scabbard in Paris and they'll see you in Berlin! Dang!
Cheers.
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