|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 9, 2015 7:45:01 GMT
I've never been a fan of shobu or kanmuri but I can appreciate a good unokubi, though I'd never use one. They make noto feel very weird and I practice both iai and kenjutsu so good feeling noto is always good. I also tend to like a sword that has a good mix of features seen on swords for both arts.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Aug 9, 2015 8:36:16 GMT
Because of the kissaki? I think Kanmuri especially tends to not be as resilient in this area, but I do like the smoothness of the sugata that isn't interrupted by a yokote. Practically speaking though, I think a kanmuri otoshi blade is definitely outclassed by an unokubi or shinogi zukuri.
What strikes you as off about noto with an unokubi?
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 9, 2015 8:42:48 GMT
There is a feeling that you get when you run the blade against your finger that you can feel in the blade geometry during noto. I like the feel of a relatively uniform mune with a change at the kissaki. The thinner part of the mune on an unokubi also tends the line up with the joint of my pointer finger and after so many noto it starts to get uncomfortable. Just a preference thing really. I've always been an advocate of you like what you like and I'll like what I like so long as neither of us are factually wrong. lol
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Aug 9, 2015 8:57:10 GMT
I know exactly what you're talking about, that shift messes up doing noto the traditional way. I find it a lot more comfortable to just keep the mune in contact with the saya and leave my hand out of it altogether when handling most blades. Although a bad experience with a bent tip left a lasting impression that makes noto sketchy for me haha.
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 9, 2015 9:58:33 GMT
It is actually pretty important to feel the blade with your hand. In the style I practice, we have two fingers as a buffer between the blade and the koiguchi. A lot of new students don't do this to start out because they fear cutting themselves with a live blade when they get there. A couple of pokes from the tip of an iaito later, they listen (those things are still pretty sharp). As counter intuitive as it may be, your are less likely to stab yourself if you noto with your fingers in the way. Give it a shot with a blunt some time, take your time and build speed later. Edit: A probably better explanation. This is a quick and dirty shot of how I was taught to hold the saya during noto. We lay the mune in line with our wrist and arm bones of the arm holding the saya. We draw the mune across our hands by pushing the end of the tsuka forward. When you feel that the kissaki is the the right place, you rotate the saya over the kissaki and slide the sword in. I know other iaido styles do it different ways, even out sister style does it different. From what I understand they do it sideways until the kissaki is in the koiguchi before returning it vertical. Other koryu even flip the blade in the hand backwards and do a different kind all together. I've seen some that place it on the koiguchi like us, but rest it there as they turn their hands upside and finish noto that way. Lots of ways to skin a chicken.
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Aug 10, 2015 4:52:33 GMT
Actually not Kiyoshi. The blade is horizontal for around 2/3 of blade, and the left hand turning the saia happens naturally due to the fact that sword is vertical in obi and the end of the line is close. We can't fight nature's laws. And when we try, we are always wrong PS The horizontal noto is used for longer blades, different chicken, different way of skinning
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 10, 2015 4:57:27 GMT
I will fully admit to not knowing much about your ryu's noto or any others. My apologies for butchering the explanation of your noto. That might explain why my attempts to try your noto have always ended poorly. My koiguchi has a couple chunks of wood missing from under it.
|
|
|
Post by Derzis on Aug 10, 2015 5:12:20 GMT
Kiyoshi no need to apologize, is normal If you want to try it, do it this way: Right hand on your 45 forward right side,. Kissaki in koiguchi and keep the sword horizontal while gently pushing the sword in. Keep the 45 direction and loose left hand. You will feel the sword begging you to use the left hand to turn the saia vertically while getting all in. hard to explain in writing though
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 10, 2015 5:14:24 GMT
Noto is a very feel oriented thing. I will try this next time I go out and practice. I've always been interested in learning about other arts. I've even tried my hand in euro swordsmanship. Not my thing, but very interesting. Thanks for the tip.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Aug 10, 2015 6:21:36 GMT
While I do like doing noto the traditional way, there's just something about putting the blade in contact with your hand that strikes me as a poor choice (again, that scrape with the bent tip really drove home that point, pun unintended). I've been working at a noto where you utilize a backwards shift in grip and a generous amount of torque from the arm so the mune smoothly greets the koiguchi and sails right into place as the left hand simultaneously positions the saya to facilitate the action. It's pretty fun to mess around practicing it.
What ryu do you practice Kiyoshi?
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 10, 2015 6:28:04 GMT
You might look at yagyu seigo ryu noto. They have a very strange noto to me. It is traditional and little contact to the skin. Though a bent kissaki would still be a problem. I study eishin ryu. I also learned some parts of other ryu from a martial arts club I used to attend. We had guys from all over, not all JSA either. The only ones I have extensive training aside from eishin ryu is bagua jian and gun, and shaolin jian and gun. They were only a year or so apiece though. My knowledge is mostly second hand and I will openly admit to not being competent in most things.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Aug 10, 2015 9:26:56 GMT
I thought so based on how you described noto. Eishin Ryu is a clean art, I like the techniques for drawing in seiza.
Thanks for the recommendation. It was really interesting to learn that the noto I saw in multiple demonstrations of Yagyu Seigo Ryu was one of the alternates I developed in practice in addition to the one I mentioned previously. I'm not sure if you've seen this Yagyu Segio Ryu demonstration, but all three artists are really fun to watch.
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 10, 2015 13:12:08 GMT
Yagyu seigo ryu was an art practiced by one of the old club members. I was able to get a rudimentary run through of some of the more basic forms but the specifics of their noto has always felt unnatural. I wish there was a place that taught it near me but he lived out of state and learned from visiting Japan if I recall. He also studied shinkage ryu, which was always a delight to share with. It is a very finesse oriented art.
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 11, 2015 9:57:40 GMT
What is poor in the geometry, exactly? Please be specific. All the Kaneie I've handled have excelled over other brands in design, performances and aesthetics (none of the tsuka were shimmed, btw). So I would very much like to know how yours turned out like it did.
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 11, 2015 12:57:13 GMT
I'm guessing that they likely started taking shortcuts since they became so big. The most obvious geometry problem is the kissaki. There is no real geometric shift. I wanted to believe there was one, but there wasn't. There was no noticeable fumbari. While speaking in absolutes with Japanese swords isn't a good idea, I can say that from what I know, the vast majority of them had some tapering. There was very little niku despite what was advertised. The blade was thin and wide, similar to the specialized goza cutters. They were not as thin or as tall, but it was noticeably more so than any sword I've handled thus far. Due to the lack of fumbari it did have a good consistent shinogi ji to hira ratio, but that is pretty easy to get with next to no taper. They might have been amazing before, I've seen some of their custom work, but they aren't worth it now. They even take shortcuts on the polish. It certainly isn't the advertised hadori.
|
|
|
Post by Google on Aug 11, 2015 18:34:08 GMT
I've handled nihonto which didn't have a sharp transition in the yokote, while being healthy and not tired. Since the niku transfers into the kissaki, thus keeping it strong, I can't see the problem. The "geometric yokote" I've seen on other chinese swords was just ground to make the sharp transition, making the kissaki weak. Most production blades don't have fumbari, and also shortened nihonto which still ferform great, so I can't see the problem here too. Kaneie don't make swords more than 35mm wide (most are 34), while specialized goza cutters are 37+. Please provide specific measurements fore motohaba and sakihaba if you can, so we'll know exactly how wide and thin it is. The blade should have taper. Mine all had at least 10mm of tapering between motohaba to sakihaba, and at least 2mm between motokasane and sakikasane. I do agree regarding the polish. I think it was better before.
Overall they're still the best chinese forge I've experienced, and I prefer going safe with them, instead of trying my luck with st-forge and the like for training equipment.
|
|
|
Post by johnwalter on Aug 11, 2015 18:41:58 GMT
The one I tested had very good geometry and nicely done niku,surprised yours didnt.It is abit blade heavy tho.But its meant to be a cutter,not really for Iai.
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 11, 2015 19:10:28 GMT
Profile taper and funbari are two different things, first affects the whole blade where as latter affects only a small portion of the blade. If you'll provide the exact measurements I'll dig an antique which is close to this blade.
|
|
|
Post by Kiyoshi on Aug 11, 2015 20:11:48 GMT
Hard to do. I returned it. I'm not interested in arguing. I don't disagree that there exists swords similar in dimensions. However, they are, in my opinion, not worth anything close to their price. You can feel differently. That's fine, but I don't. I don't like kaneie, I don't like the shortcuts, I don't like the dishonest advertising. I was promised hadori polish, it wasn't there. I was promised healthy niku that wasn't there. The kissaki wasn't much better than a hanwei. Sorry but you won't change my mind on kaneie.
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 11, 2015 20:28:58 GMT
I don't think there is an argument, just a discussion. Maybe their quality has taken a nasty downturn lately? Your opinion is a valid as anyone elses everyone can feel the way they feel.
For example the only Kaneie I've owned felt quite clunky and I traded mine away as I didn't like the feel of it. I share your opinion that they usually cost much more than I am willing to spend on Chinese made production sword.
|
|