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Post by Elrikk on May 29, 2015 20:01:47 GMT
Sword Art as an investment
So my mom is 90 and still very independent but she wants to get her affairs in order in case something ever happens to her, as I'm an only child.
One of the items she will pass on to me is a painting she bought in the 40-50's for like $50. It's by an artist named Elizabeth O'Neill Verner. The painting is of an old slave woman smoking a pipe and selling flowers, painted on silk, and worth between $25,000-$30,000. I've seen this all my life and it's really not my cup of tea. My mother has no problem with me selling it when she is gone. I feel weird about this though since it was hers for so long, but then again I don't want to stare at this for another 50 years.
So, I thought of turning one piece of art into another by investing in something more my taste. You guessed it, a sword! But what!? My first thought was "Nihonto", but I'm woefully uneducated in that market. Then I thought maybe a "Fable", but however beautiful I don't think they would be an investment, per se. And, I would want ALL of the proceeds to go into one item.
So any ideas or help would be appreciated...
Elrikk
p.s. I hope this post doesn't come off as Ghoulish, I'd love for my mom to live another 25 years, but this thought came to mind and I started to wonder how I could solve this dilemma.
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Post by Elrikk on May 29, 2015 20:41:04 GMT
Btw....I'm open to ANY ideas, Swords, guns, Mlitary paintings....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 20:41:42 GMT
Who's to say it won't sell before she goes?
That may sound as cold but a reality. Cross that bridge when you get there?
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Post by Elrikk on May 29, 2015 20:59:09 GMT
Who's to say it won't sell before she goes? That may sound as cold but a reality. Cross that bridge when you get there? She's cool with me selling it now, but it just doesn't feel right...
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Post by Aurélien on May 29, 2015 22:46:21 GMT
$25000/$30000? Buy gold coins before the US dollar collapses.
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Post by randomnobody on May 29, 2015 22:59:08 GMT
I was going to suggest gold or other precious metals. Really the best way to "store" money. Swords won't always be in demand...
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 23:38:08 GMT
Well, there are a lot of considerations as a young man and I can say closing out estates can be tricky. Assuming your mom is solvent past the end, taxes still come into play. Auctions and private sales as well. What something was appraised at, often isn't what a seller will realize. The art market is kind of soft right now and it is a buyers market. Good luck.
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Post by Elrikk on May 30, 2015 0:53:03 GMT
$25000/$30000? Buy gold coins before the US dollar collapses. I've been prepping HARD since 1998 when rumors of Y2K were rampant, so my preps are in good order. No, this has to be art of some kind, and just one piece if possible. Since I first posted I came across this...but I really just dipping my toes right now and I don't know what I'm looking at... www.nihonto.com/rh457.html
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Post by Afoo on May 30, 2015 1:06:33 GMT
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Scott
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Post by Scott on May 30, 2015 1:23:24 GMT
I'm assuming your mother has the legal side in order with a will etc? If that's the case then before anything else do research. Lots of it. You might be better off with a collection of cheaper pieces built around a theme. Don't forget to insure it.
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Post by brotherbanzai on May 30, 2015 13:33:03 GMT
I think if you are set on a sword as an investment, a desirable antique is going to be about the only way to go. Still going to be risky, as any investment is. I'm sure there must be antique western swords available as well though I have no idea how stable the market has been for those. Could always commission a bronze sculpture of a woman or dragon or something holding a usable sword, hint hint, nudge nudge. But really, I would think you could spend some time learning about Nihonto, or even paying an expert to help you find a worthwhile sword.
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Post by Pogo4321 on May 30, 2015 14:23:50 GMT
The first modern sword maker that comes to mind that I'd consider investment material is Jake Powning. There are quite a few who turn out amazing work such as Jesus Hernandez and Patrik Barta, but can you expect to get a return on an investment in their work? If you go custom and want to see a return historical recreations and inspirations look to be the best bet from what I see.
Maybe Petr Johnson but his new prices aren't in your range. Not sure what a Powning goes for these days either.
Antique is probably most likely option. Lots of nice sabers to there.
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Post by Elrikk on May 30, 2015 16:00:43 GMT
The first modern sword maker that comes to mind that I'd consider investment material is Jake Powning. There are quite a few who turn out amazing work such as Jesus Hernandez and Patrik Barta, but can you expect to get a return on an investment in their work? If you go custom and want to see a return historical recreations and inspirations look to be the best bet from what I see. Maybe Petr Johnson but his new prices aren't in your range. Not sure what a Powning goes for these days either. Antique is probably most likely option. Lots of nice sabers to there. I'm not really looking for a return on investment, since it would probably never be sold. However, I would expect it to hold the initial investment. Do antique Nihonto do that? Does anyone have insight to that market? I'm also partial to sabers...but there is a whole new ballgame...
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 16:12:02 GMT
I've had much better luck with guitars retaining their value than swords. It seems like from 2008 or so onward, the best I could seem to hope for would be liquidating swords at over 60% loss. Fortunately I like what I have, so there is that. If it ever turns around I'll be one happy man.
One thing working in your favor right now is the yen is depressed, if you want a nihonto this seems like a great time to get one at a discount.
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Post by Afoo on May 30, 2015 16:27:39 GMT
The low Euro is also helpful
I have only been collecting for the past year and a bit, but within that time I have seen sabres steadily increase in value - at least for the lower end stuff I tend to browse. I think it is a good assumption that the higher end market behaves similarly as well
I think sabres are a good bet because they reflect a time that is far enough in the past for us to have highly romanticized views on them (Napoleonic era, British wars in Sudan, Charge of the Light Brigade etc), while being recent enough for it to still feel tangible. It hasn't yet been lost to the mists of time, and its impact can still be felt and seen around us - British Imperial Rule, the American Civil War - these are events which have shaped the world we live in, and whose effects we can still see all around us, not only in our history and politics, but also our culture - I am Canadian so my views may be a bit biased, but you can't go anywhere without seeing a Royal this or a Queen Victoria that. Its such a big part of our culture, and it always will be.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Jun 1, 2015 12:06:26 GMT
A really good (and genuine) officers dress sabre from your country of origin authenticated by Southerby's or similar along with some gold coins from the same era, thereby not putting your eggs in one basket but having the same era
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Post by Elrikk on Jun 1, 2015 22:12:11 GMT
A really good (and genuine) officers dress sabre from your country of origin authenticated by Southerby's or similar along with some gold coins from the same era, thereby not putting your eggs in one basket but having the same era :) I have a mixed European ancestry, and I like your idea.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jun 2, 2015 2:59:04 GMT
Myself, Id only invest in land. It's the least fragile form - can't be destroyed and the demand for it continues to rise.Though it can be taken from you by a hostile government (domestic or foreign) if things go that way. But if the poo hits the fan forget any investment, it's survival. ( I actually wrote poo but it changed it to poo haha)
Gold can be devalued as easy as any currency. At the end of the bronze age, before steel came on to the scene - bronze was the basis of the world economy - what gold was up until 50 years ago or so. Nowadays countries do not have to have the gold to back up their currency releases. (Heck they don't even have to print it as paper, just enter it into a computer. How tentative is currency then, it's just imagined?) Anyway, when steel came on the scene, all bronze became worthless. Tonnes of it were just dumped en-mass. Yet it was another 200 years of recession before the economy picked up again and steel as a commodity took off. The mere appearance of steel caused faith in bronze to disappear, and to cause a 200 year collapse of the economy.
I mean gold is a nice shiney non ferrous metal. Has good conducting and forming properties, but it's really not that special; bloody heavy and clumsy too.
If you want art, paint mediums still have the biggest market. If the economy drops, you've got to think which market will be the strongest. We're all sword biased around here, but it's just not strong of a market compared to paint. Or Cars? - How about a Ferrari, or classic muscle car - big rich boys will always be into the cars they wanted when they were kids, and the older the Car gets the rarer good ones become. I think you'll have a lot of research to do to find a good resilient market, which you can be passionate about. Besides, have you had a valuation done on the painting to see what it's worth in your current, accessible market situation? My dad always craps on about how valuable his antiques are and offers certain things to me, but honestly I think I'd have to find someone just as crazy as him to give me half of what he says it's worth. And I sure as hell don't want it or have room for it.
All forms are fleeting. Just research it, and point your opportunity in the direction that will best serve you, and enrich your life. For me though, it's my home all the way.
If you want to buy swords though, I'm sure you could find a sympathetic ear or two around here.
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Post by Afoo on Jun 2, 2015 3:40:05 GMT
Myself, Id only invest in land. It's the least fragile form - can't be destroyed and the demand for it continues to rise.Though it can be taken from you by a hostile government (domestic or foreign) if things go that way. But if the poo hits the fan forget any investment, it's survival. ( I actually wrote poo but it changed it to poo haha) Gold can be devalued as easy as any currency. At the end of the bronze age, before steel came on to the scene - bronze was the basis of the world economy - what gold was up until 50 years ago or so. Nowadays countries do not have to have the gold to back up their currency releases. (Heck they don't even have to print it as paper, just enter it into a computer. How tentative is currency then, it's just imagined?) Anyway, when steel came on the scene, all bronze became worthless. Tonnes of it were just dumped en-mass. Yet it was another 200 years of recession before the economy picked up again and steel as a commodity took off. The mere appearance of steel caused faith in bronze to disappear, and to cause a 200 year collapse of the economy. I mean gold is a nice shiney non ferrous metal. Has good conducting and forming properties, but it's really not that special; bloody heavy and clumsy too. If you want art, paint mediums still have the biggest market. If the economy drops, you've got to think which market will be the strongest. We're all sword biased around here, but it's just not strong of a market compared to paint. Or Cars? - How about a Ferrari, or classic muscle car - big rich boys will always be into the cars they wanted when they were kids, and the older the Car gets the rarer good ones become. I think you'll have a lot of research to do to find a good resilient market, which you can be passionate about. Besides, have you had a valuation done on the painting to see what it's worth in your current, accessible market situation? My dad always craps on about how valuable his antiques are and offers certain things to me, but honestly I think I'd have to find someone just as crazy as him to give me half of what he says it's worth. And I sure as hell don't want it or have room for it. All forms are fleeting. Just research it, and point your opportunity in the direction that will best serve you, and enrich your life. For me though, it's my home all the way. If you want to buy swords though, I'm sure you could find a sympathetic ear or two around here. Problem with stuff like art and cars is that you have to put in time and money into conservation and protection. Gold is unique as it is chemically inert, which is part of its value. Palladium and platinum are good choices as well since they are very aesthetically pleasing, but are also in very high demand for chemical synthesis and catalysis, due to their ability to carry out certain industrially-valuable chemical reactions which can be done in no other way OR you can invest in Mokume-Gane, which is basically a bunch of different precious metals pattern-welded together. Breathtakingly beautiful, and extremely unique. Heck, you could even make a sword (or at least part of a sword) out of it to make a valuable investment piece which incorporates the timeless allure of precious metals along with your passion for swords, and the martial qualities it embodies.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 2, 2015 3:44:42 GMT
Brendan brings up several good points. There's really no inherently stable form of investing. Even the stock market is just high-level gambling and we've seen what happens when it crashes...
Land or real estate are probably great options, but they've also got some of the higher starting rates depending on your location. I'm not sure I'm getting the word right, or how universal this principle is, but I remember hearing horror stories about "eminent domain" in the past, as well...
Basically, get what you want, or just hold the money for emergencies or put it toward something like home renovation so you can at least get something out of it here and now that will still be somewhat valuable later.
Edit: Afoo snuck in while I was taking my time typing this up between chatting with a friend on Telegram, so also what he said.
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