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Post by jakecwolf on Mar 19, 2015 9:15:50 GMT
Was looking around Kult of Athena, when I spied a Naginata for only 30 USD, to say I'm skeptical of it's quality and battle-readiness would be to say the stars in the night sky are plentiful, I'm extremely dubious, I've searched around for third party review on the weapon, but can't seem to find any. This is the naginata in question: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=JL069Just wondering if anyone could confirm for me my suspicions this is a wall hanger and not something worth actually using in cutting practice.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 19, 2015 10:03:17 GMT
Kult of Athena describe it as "decorative", i.e., wall-hanger. Two-piece haft with a screw attachment near the head (which also shows that the tang is quite short) doesn't add any confidence. Seems safe to trust KoA's judgment on this.
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Post by uchiha998 on Mar 19, 2015 11:55:18 GMT
Stainless steel blade too. Gotta stay away from this if you wanna cut anything. Don't make me post the video of the Home Shopping Network guy selling the stainless steel katanas.
Plus something tell me it probably has a rat-tail tang. If that is the case even swinging it could be dangerous. Though I could be wrong about the rat-tail tang, it is just that many low priced stainless steel blades have just that.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 19, 2015 12:28:45 GMT
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 19, 2015 13:43:33 GMT
Here's how to use one.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 19, 2015 14:12:04 GMT
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 19, 2015 14:21:57 GMT
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 19, 2015 14:31:33 GMT
And here's one of these in use cutting.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 19, 2015 14:47:29 GMT
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Post by jakecwolf on Mar 20, 2015 2:55:51 GMT
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!! lol j/k couldn't resist, but holy crap that's a lot of chain replies.
I did see the Hanwei one on Kult of Athena, the price isn't what turned me off though, I watch a few guys on Youtube, not sure which one specifically but they dislike Hanwei but explain the reasoning behind it saying the quality of steel they use is on the soft side and has poor edge retention, I respect them and I find their opinions worth great merit, but wonder if anyone else thinks this as well.
Also I thought stainless was the better one to have, or at least for rust proofing, does a stainless steel blade not hold an edge as well or not even to begin with? Truth be told in hind sight the primary drawback compatibly of carbon steel is moot if one actually takes steps to keep it from rusting, which for a 500+ weapon, one would be smart too (like people act as smart as they claim to be these days, but I digress).
The second one you posted I haven't seen, but I will look into, truth be told, I'm dead broke at the moment, I can't afford the 30 dollar one, let alone anything more that crosses the line into the "reasonable quality for the price" category.
Thank you in advance for all the feedback so far and anymore you have for me.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 20, 2015 3:46:03 GMT
That is probably the very first time I have ever heard Hanwei accused of soft steel and poor edge retention. For functional weapons, particularly in the size and scale of a naginata, stainless is a no-go because, on average, the stainless used will be of very low quality. I can almost guarantee the construction of the whole thing will be equally poor in quality. This is why stainless steels are generally advised against when seeking a proper "weapons grade" sharp anything. Rust proofing, as you say, is an act of maintenance, not a steel type. As to the edge retention of stainless, that depends entirely on the steel. There are a lot of "stainless" steels out there, some remarkable, some crap. Many top knife manufacturers and even custom makers use stainless steels for their products, usually various alloys with different amounts of, say, carbon, vanadium, etc. Many will take a very fine edge and hold it almost forever, with normal use, but many, many more will dull themselves by the sheer force of existing. I have a number of cheap knives with cheap stainless steel blades, and edge retention on pretty much all of them is very poor. I also have a few knives with the "same" steel that take great edges and hold them extremely well. Anyway, the primary reason I would advise against any naginata selling for a mere $30, or even anything less than $100 (though the linked model can be had for $65 with enough shopping and has reviewed rather well, but the steel is low-carbon and not very hard) is simply because one cannot trust the construction. There's a LOT that goes into making a naginata, and making it work. You're not going to get that for $30. If you like the look of the $30 model, and you want it, then buy it. Just do us a favor, put it up on your wall, and leave it there. If you intend to swing something around, do yourself and all of us a favor and at least save up for the other one. If you really want a GOOD naginata, save up more for the Hanwei. I'm personally setting aside pennies at a time for an antique. I've been eying one near my range for a month or two now and I'm really hoping it doesn't sell before I can afford it.
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Post by Croccifixio on Mar 20, 2015 3:54:00 GMT
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!! lol j/k couldn't resist, but holy crap that's a lot of chain replies. I did see the Hanwei one on Kult of Athena, the price isn't what turned me off though, I watch a few guys on Youtube, not sure which one specifically but they dislike Hanwei but explain the reasoning behind it saying the quality of steel they use is on the soft side and has poor edge retention, I respect them and I find their opinions worth great merit, but wonder if anyone else thinks this as well. Also I thought stainless was the better one to have, or at least for rust proofing, does a stainless steel blade not hold an edge as well or not even to begin with? Truth be told in hind sight the primary drawback compatibly of carbon steel is moot if one actually takes steps to keep it from rusting, which for a 500+ weapon, one would be smart too (like people act as smart as they claim to be these days, but I digress). The second one you posted I haven't seen, but I will look into, truth be told, I'm dead broke at the moment, I can't afford the 30 dollar one, let alone anything more that crosses the line into the "reasonable quality for the price" category. Thank you in advance for all the feedback so far and anymore you have for me. The general rule of thumb is that for swords, Stainless Steel = Wallhanger/SLO (Sword-Like Object). That's because a large majority of Stainless Steel swords are cheaply made. Stainless Steel has a lot of Chromium, which resists corrosion. The downside for its use in swords/weapons/knives however is the following quote from the British Stainless Steel Association (http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=125): This means that Stainless Steel cannot take as much stress as Carbon Steel. Neither can it take as good of an edge, because of its generally low carbon content (http://www.inlandbonsai.com/articles/steel/steel.pdf). However, I've been made aware that there are limited instances wherein Stainless Steel is decent for a sword (normally, it's good enough for everyday knives and even machetes). There are types/grades of Stainless Steel that perform as decently as "high carbon" steel (http://www.knifecenter.com/info/knife-blade-materials). However, I believe that most swordsmiths won't use those kinds of Stainless Steel because an equally expensive piece of high carbon steel would still outperform it on sword-oriented tasks (aka, balance between edge retention, ductility, and toughness).
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Post by crazywolf on Mar 20, 2015 4:07:38 GMT
I have the one from real sword master if all you cut is real light targets you'll be ok the blade is on the soft side it bent the edge when I missed a cut and hit my stand.but as a low end low cost cutter it's ok I got a hanwei naginata and it far and away better and as the blade being soft the one I got was dull it had been displayed in a local dojo I tried using a file to rough in the edge but gave up cause it would touch it I talked to someone at hanwei and I was told there naginata has a clay tempered edge so had to wait till I got my belt sander took a while but it has an edge now.there aren't many choices out there and since I wanted a one to use and cut with I went with the hanwei
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Post by jakecwolf on Mar 20, 2015 9:27:55 GMT
The general rule of thumb is that for swords, Stainless Steel = Wallhanger/SLO (Sword-Like Object). That's because a large majority of Stainless Steel swords are cheaply made. Stainless Steel has a lot of Chromium, which resists corrosion. The downside for its use in swords/weapons/knives however is the following quote from the British Stainless Steel Association (http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=125): This means that Stainless Steel cannot take as much stress as Carbon Steel. Neither can it take as good of an edge, because of its generally low carbon content (http://www.inlandbonsai.com/articles/steel/steel.pdf). However, I've been made aware that there are limited instances wherein Stainless Steel is decent for a sword (normally, it's good enough for everyday knives and even machetes). There are types/grades of Stainless Steel that perform as decently as "high carbon" steel (http://www.knifecenter.com/info/knife-blade-materials). However, I believe that most swordsmiths won't use those kinds of Stainless Steel because an equally expensive piece of high carbon steel would still outperform it on sword-oriented tasks (aka, balance between edge retention, ductility, and toughness). Watching guys like Skallagrim and Swordsage I've gleamed those few basic pieces of information namely the concepts of wall hangers and SLO as opposed to weapons built to take (and adversely give) punishment, I've also heard both passingly mention what you and random have told me, but never understood exactly what they meant or why, now it all seems clear. Speaking of Skall and Sage (they are great guys you really should check them out if you haven't already, shameless plugging is shameless I know...) it was the former who said he feels Hanwei's metal are a little on the soft side, he posted a video about it too, spefically regarding the Hanwei Pudao;
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Mar 20, 2015 10:49:28 GMT
Not all Hanwei blades are equal. In particular, they're not all the same steels/alloys, and they're not heat-treated identically. Their differentially hardened blades are (usually) quite hard. Their naginata is differentially hardened, and having seen a photo of one with a big chip out of the blade, I don't think it would suffer a bent tip like the pudao above.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 11:32:33 GMT
My friend has an early model Hanwei naginata, it may have been a prototype (red saya instead of black), and the blade bends if you look at it funny. It's been used for cutting heavily for easily a decade, so it may or may not be a reflection of what they are producing now. This one likes to bend at roughly the midpoint of the blade. I've also seen the ishizuki sail off into the sunset after a hard stop on a failed cut, that was pretty comical.
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Post by jakecwolf on Mar 20, 2015 12:23:22 GMT
Not all Hanwei blades are equal. In particular, they're not all the same steels/alloys, and they're not heat-treated identically. Their differentially hardened blades are (usually) quite hard. Their naginata is differentially hardened, and having seen a photo of one with a big chip out of the blade, I don't think it would suffer a bent tip like the pudao above. I'd rather have the bend to be honest, it's breaking off a huge chunk that would force me to replace the entire blade instead of just getting minor repairs done to it or bending it back with a heat gun and a little elbow grease isn't much of a consolation to be honest.
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Post by Gunnar Wolfgard on Mar 20, 2015 12:35:21 GMT
Sometimes it's not the blade that's the problem but the person wielding it. A hit at a bad angle can damage almost any blade. The Naginata is a little more difficult to master than a sword because of it's length, especially for cutting something like bamboo . I've seen some reports about damage being done to them, maybe that's why they don't seem to be available anymore from Hanwei.
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Post by Croccifixio on Mar 20, 2015 12:52:51 GMT
Skall is a big factor on my joining SBG and picking up his hobby. He used to be a frequent poster here and often posted his reviews.
As for bends vs chips, i guess it depends on you. I've read that in terms of safety, bends (ergo soft steel) are better but in terms of quality, a chip/snap is much better (you can study the grain to see if there was, say, an inclusion in the microstructure and therefore know if it was just a lemon or if the overall quality is just bad).
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 20, 2015 13:19:27 GMT
I miss Skall, great guy. His YouTube videos are always good watching, and he seems to have a pretty sizable fan base there. Good for him.
Ideally, any "good" sword will bend and set before it breaks. Hard edges can chip, but soft edges can be chipped, too. Hard edges tend to hold longer than soft, so it's a tradeoff, as with all things.
Cutting with a naginata, which I've never done, is different to cutting with a sword, which I have attempted and am lousy at. This is because you've taken a rather small blade (most historic examples ran 15-16" but Hanwei's is 20"), often rather thin, and put it at the end of a long stick. Torque is multiplied accordingly, and bad alignment (easier wtih the "teardrop" shape of a naginata haft than the "oval" of a katana, for instance) makes nasty things happen. On that note, I've seen a number of antique naginata with in-koshirae lengths of longer than eight feet. Hanwei's stands a meager 6 feet, if only just.
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