|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 8, 2015 1:27:19 GMT
Please check out the link below to learn more about counterfeit knives and what we can do to stop the theft of intellectual property. The crooks are getting better every day, and the best way to prevent being taken by one is to become educated about this topic: AKTI - Contending With Counterfeits
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Feb 8, 2015 15:44:48 GMT
What about licensed swords that are reproduced by unlicensed parties? They are not exactly trying to fake themselves by being originals but still they kinda are riding on another makers intellectual property.
Most famous probably being Conan replicas, but there are plenty of others too like Walking Dead, Book of Eli etc. movie/tv show replicas are popular in these.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2015 15:47:34 GMT
I can't really say, as while I've never been able to identify any of my knives as deliberate knockoffs, I have bought numerous with no branding at all, and I hold no illusions to their originality. There are only so many shapes of knife, after all.
Edit: as to swords, I wonder how we'd define "counterfeit" in this case. Are replicas of specific historic swords counterfeits of that sword? Is any random sword made yesterday but treated to appear aged and worn and sold as antique a counterfeit? Are the generic, newly-made Chinatana we all know and (some of us) love "counterfeit" Japanese swords?
Where does "genuine" stand, if not behind a patent or copyright?
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Feb 8, 2015 17:32:35 GMT
In my mind, the line is based on the original intent of the producer OR the seller. If either party is producing the good or selling the good with the intent to deceive the end customer as to its identity, then its counterfeit.
Yes, there are some companies which make good replica swords of antique originals - so long as they do not pass it off as an original, its fine. Same for the wholesellers - if they knowingly receive a replica and then sell it as an original, then shame on them. With regards to antique swords in specific, I would also argue that the dealer has the responsibility to do the required research to authenticate an item before selling - basically show due diligence in inspecting and verifying it before selling it rather than taking the item at face value. Most antique dealers are quite good about it, but there are a few dealers on e-bay which will let the occasional fake through.
If you look on e-bay, there are a disturbing number of fake swords. Many of them are obvious, but quite a few of them are of good enough quality to fool the average beginner or even intermediate level collector. And they are only going to get better from here on...
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 8, 2015 18:01:45 GMT
First of all, some definitions must be given...
TO COUNTERFEIT, criminal law. To make something false, in the semblance of that which is true; it always implies a fraudulent intent. Vide Vin. Ab. h.t. Forgery.
Counterfeit: an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery.
When it comes to swords, I would consider new wallhangers 'fake' from the standpoint that they're not intended for use. The same can be said for fake (counterfeit) Chinese katanas, e.g. the ubiquitous "antique Japanese katana" found on eBay and elsewhere. Modern reproductions are a whole other ballgame: they aren't counterfeits, they're reproductions. Let's take Paul Chen/Hanwei/Cold Steel/Bugei/Huawei, etc... they look and feel very similar to each other (in some degree - we all know CS has weird issues regarding weight/mass distribution), but are they claiming to be something they're not, e.g. a shinsakuto or gendaito? No - all they claim to be are reproduction Japanese swords, and are sold as such. We all know of some particular companies though that try to bypass this and sell their wares by using false advertising/breaking copyrights.
When it comes to knives, counterfeits/fakes often look identical in appearance to real knives, so there's a big problem ferreting out if it's real or not. Sometimes, the fake knives have the name/logos from real companies, but the knife shape/design was never made by the real company. So, how can we discern if it's a fake or not? Ask people in the know (try to join forums where people ask if the sword/knife is fake and what makes it so), contact the makers, or if buying in person, check out the knife in question and see if it fits with what you know about said knife (blade shape/type of steel/weight/other characteristics). Also, if the price is too good to be true, or the sellers has wild claims about the knife, buyer beware: unless it's from a reputable source, don't take their word for it.
Here's another great article that explains how huge this problem is: HOW EBAY, AMAZON AND ALIBABA FUEL THE WORLD'S TOP ILLEGAL INDUSTRY — THE COUNTERFEIT PRODUCTS MARKET
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2015 18:22:40 GMT
Probably just goes to show how little attention I pay to the knife world. Almost all companies have at least one or two models that, to me, are essentially identical. As I said, there are only so many different shapes of knife. Hard to say if one design is, in fact, the unique intellectual property of an individual or if it is simply "inspired by" any number of other examples, much like the sword world, where there are only so many shapes and sizes of sword and guard. See all the LOTR and other fantasy swords, plus the sheer number of "this sword is modeled after this other sword from this museum/collection" where multiple manufacturers seem to have the same "rights" to the same "design," only with very minimal differences in most cases.
When people have been making things for so long, it is difficult to contest a truly unique, original design.
Granted, if the knife in question bears a brand name, that is certainly a point of contention as to whether or not it is made by that same brand. That I can see. The mass of knives of generic design, with no claim to make or name, are a bit of a gray area.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 8, 2015 18:29:22 GMT
Here's what I mean about the proliferation of cheap knockoffs - all of the knives displayed are fakes, but some are almost identical to the real deal: Fake Benchmade knivesThe link is only for educational purposes only - please don't buy anything from these thieves.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2015 18:44:31 GMT
That's just a link to this thread. But I can see where the copying of a brand name and it's associated product line is what you're referring to as "counterfeit." What I can't be sure of us if any of the cheapo, nameless stuff I've bought over the years was made as a copy of some known brand. I don't knowingly buy "counterfeit" anything, but can't say that I never have unknowingly... So I guess the "not knowingly" angle is the one I'm in.
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Feb 8, 2015 18:57:30 GMT
That's just a link to this thread. :-X Seems to be a common problem when making posts to SBG for some reason... I do not think I have any counterfeits. Curiously, I bought a sword off someone on e-bay who listed it as a repro, but it turned out to be real. I guess they did not know much about swords, and really wanted to avoid shafting a buyer unintentionally. If only more people were like that
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2015 19:11:21 GMT
I haven't had any issues with posting external links, and this is the first time I've seen one do that. My guess is LG accidentally copied the wrong tab's URL or, I see he's made a comment in the shoutbox about this thread, maybe it was just the wrong clipboard. I've done that before, but it's not the forum's fault.
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Feb 8, 2015 19:17:29 GMT
It happens quite a bit in the e-bay finds section I find. Its not often, but a bit more often than it really should be. Maybe its just me though
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2015 19:35:16 GMT
Never visit that thread, couldn't say. Either way, we're veering off-topic. I tried quoting LG's post to have a look at the coding, and it looks like the URL segment is empty. Probably why it redirects to the source page?
Anyway, I'm sure the link will be fixed shortly...
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 8, 2015 19:41:27 GMT
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2015 19:45:46 GMT
Test Hyperlink WooJust looking to see what that does when posted. I can definitely see how those would pass as real Benchmade. The only thing I have to go by is how cheap everything is. I associate Benchmade with "Yeah I can't afford that" so I can look at these prices and think "Something's not right here." Others, though, would easily fall prey to something like this. Edit: I see the original hyperlink has also been fixed.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 8, 2015 19:48:16 GMT
please remember though the link is for educational purposes only - don't buy these or any other knock offs... you're only helping bankroll the thieves.
|
|
|
Post by Afoo on Feb 8, 2015 20:08:08 GMT
See - I would buy something like those benchmade knives myself. I am not a huge knife affectionado, and I actually am not familiar with the benchmade name. I would simply buy it because it looks like a nice knife and fits within my budget.
Long story short, I would unwittingly buy it as a generic $50 knife, rather than a $50 benchmade knife. That may be a big problem when dealing with counterfeiters as well - how do you reach people like me who have no interest in the expensive brand name knives, but end up buying a fake simply because its a well prices knife regardless of name? You could try educating us, but chances are that if we are not big on collecting them, we will not actively seek out this information.
The second question is whether this counts as being wrong? The seller is intending to fool the customer with malicious intent. In my case, I am not a victim, since I was never under the impression I was buying an original, nor do I particularly care. As such, you could argue that there was no harm done to the buyer. Likewise, I would likely not buy a benchmade knife anyways cause of the price, so the original company which is being ripped off isn't losing a sale through my actions. Yes the counter fitter still gets money, but you oculd argue that they did not receive the money through the act of counter fitting itself.
|
|
|
Post by whitefeathers on Feb 8, 2015 20:19:37 GMT
I voted, not that I know of ..all of my pocket knives are CRKT purchased either at the PX when I was in the military or at gun shows .
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2015 20:21:57 GMT
please remember though the link is for educational purposes only - don't buy these or any other knock offs... you're only helping bankroll the thieves. Oh, definitely, no worries there. Don't like 'em, anyway. That's the other reason I don't own a Benchmade.
|
|
|
Post by LG Martial Arts on Feb 8, 2015 20:25:10 GMT
See - I would buy something like those benchmade knives myself. I am not a huge knife affectionado, and I actually am not familiar with the benchmade name. I would simply buy it because it looks like a nice knife and fits within my budget. Long story short, I would unwittingly buy it as a generic $50 knife, rather than a $50 benchmade knife. That may be a big problem when dealing with counterfeiters as well - how do you reach people like me who have no interest in the expensive brand name knives, but end up buying a fake simply because its a well prices knife regardless of name? You could try educating us, but chances are that if we are not big on collecting them, we will not actively seek out this information. The second question is whether this counts as being wrong? The seller is intending to fool the customer with malicious intent. In my case, I am not a victim, since I was never under the impression I was buying an original, nor do I particularly care. As such, you could argue that there was no harm done to the buyer. Likewise, I would likely not buy a benchmade knife anyways cause of the price, so the original company which is being ripped off isn't losing a sale through my actions. Yes the counter fitter still gets money, but you oculd argue that they did not receive the money through the act of counter fitting itself. The unfortunate fact though is that many of these counterfeit items end up either on the streets (sometimes sold at gun shows by vendors if you can believe that) or are sold as the real deal on eBay, Amazon, etc... I've seen quite a few (Benchmade, Buck, Spyderco, etc) being sold on both eBay and Amazon that were fakes, but was only able to verify after doing some research/reaching out to people. Buy a couple dozen at $11 a pop, sell them for $150+ on eBay... that's the trap... intentional malfeasance and intent to rip people off.
|
|
|
Post by Suho on Feb 9, 2015 16:22:48 GMT
I am also a guitarist, and this is an increasing problem among guitars as well. There is a distinction between a knife/guitar that copies a design but uses a different brand name or logo, and one that is counterfeit that not only copies the design but that also is falsely labeled with the original's brand name - often going so far as to lie about what country it was made in (to reflect where a legit product would have been made). It's one thing to copy the design of a Gibson Les Paul or a Fender Stratocaster, but when you also label your products as Gibson or Fender you are flat out engaged in intentionally misrepresenting the products.
|
|