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Post by spearman on Feb 20, 2015 21:09:25 GMT
I train mostly sabre, and have a very small bit of experience with smallsword, and while I do agree with George Silver, the rapier vs smallsword bouts I've seen tend to be 50:50. Personally, I prefer the smallsword (mostly because it fits my period of interest), but the rapier is quite a weapon in the right hands. of course, the issue of basket-hilted backswords is an interesting one in that the system that George Silver devised for their use was aimed to a great extent at defeating the rapier and side sword, given their prevalence on the continent at the time. When George Silver died, it appears that the English School instruction suffered a major loss in information regarding how to defeat a rapier. One of the best ways to do so is to immediately attack as the rapier wielder begins to retreat, but you have to catch them in motion. If you are looking at ARMA videos, only pay attention to the first few touches.
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Post by spearman on Feb 20, 2015 22:27:22 GMT
Timo, Good post. According to the writings of George Silver, the rapier required stepping back during a disengage due to how long the blades were, while the side sword did not. Side swords had shorter blades. I am exclusively focused on the English school as far as 16th Century swords go, so I must admit that as a disclaimer. George killed a number of rapier teachers, and a big part of his teaching was to show his students how to defeat a rapier. You can use a side sword out of the box in the same way you would use a rapier, but you would sacrifice a number of period guards and attacks. The best source I have found to show the difference is Renaissance Swordsmanship: The Illustrated Use of Rapiers and Cut-and-Thrust Swords by John Clements, the director of ARMA. You are quite correct that modern rapier repros are shorter and lighter than period examples in some cases. IMO. they are trying to negate some of the disadvantages to the rapier that were corrected with the small sword. What rapier teachers, did George Silver kill?
Rapier vs. Side sword- If the side swords fighter was in his place, I could see the rapier man would have to step back to disengage to attack. Rapier vs. rapier- If they were in their place(time of hand) They wouldn't have to step back to disengage. Now if they were a little closer than their place(like going into grips) I could see this, and this can happen very easy. This is why Silver said, "The just length of you sword, to be made according to your own stature". This way, if you get to close you can still uncross your sword and attack. For me anything 32" to 34" is good for my stature, 32" to 33" my preferred length.
John Clements book is out dated, I wouldn't recommend his book.
George Silver never disclosed the identity of the Italian rapier instructors he killed in England, nor did he state an exact number. He also stated that they would no longer accept his challenges. He was a real old school English badass! Although my research is not complete, it looks like he did his kills as his opponent was in the middle of a retreat following a disengage.
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Post by spearman on Feb 20, 2015 22:50:48 GMT
Timo, Good post. According to the writings of George Silver, the rapier required stepping back during a disengage due to how long the blades were, while the side sword did not. Side swords had shorter blades. I am exclusively focused on the English school as far as 16th Century swords go, so I must admit that as a disclaimer. George killed a number of rapier teachers, and a big part of his teaching was to show his students how to defeat a rapier. You can use a side sword out of the box in the same way you would use a rapier, but you would sacrifice a number of period guards and attacks. The best source I have found to show the difference is Renaissance Swordsmanship: The Illustrated Use of Rapiers and Cut-and-Thrust Swords by John Clements, the director of ARMA. You are quite correct that modern rapier repros are shorter and lighter than period examples in some cases. IMO. they are trying to negate some of the disadvantages to the rapier that were corrected with the small sword. What rapier teachers, did George Silver kill?
Rapier vs. Side sword- If the side swords fighter was in his place, I could see the rapier man would have to step back to disengage to attack. Rapier vs. rapier- If they were in their place(time of hand) They wouldn't have to step back to disengage. Now if they were a little closer than their place(like going into grips) I could see this, and this can happen very easy. This is why Silver said, "The just length of you sword, to be made according to your own stature". This way, if you get to close you can still uncross your sword and attack. For me anything 32" to 34" is good for my stature, 32" to 33" my preferred length.
John Clements book is out dated, I wouldn't recommend his book.
32" to 34" is a good blade. A lot of the Italian rapiers in the 16th Century were longer than 36", longer than the users stature made ideal. You can discover just what George meant if you can spar against a blade 36" or longer while you have one of about 32-33 Inches long. You should be able to hit your opponent before they are able to fully deal with their own disengage. John Clements book shows almost all the guards and attacks the side sword and rapier, and it is especially valuable in showing the difference between the two. If you have a book that is more current, I would love to add it to my library.
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Scott
Member
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Post by Scott on Feb 21, 2015 0:46:14 GMT
George silver never claimed to have killed any rapier teachers in either the paradoxes of defence or the brief instructions. He did say his challenge was ignored by one, Vincentio Saviolo from memory. Spearman, if you're after a more up to date book, try looking at www.freelanceacademypress.com/books.aspxAlso Guy Windsor's books are supposed to be very good.
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
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Post by Razor on Feb 22, 2015 1:22:35 GMT
What rapier teachers, did George Silver kill?
Rapier vs. Side sword- If the side swords fighter was in his place, I could see the rapier man would have to step back to disengage to attack. Rapier vs. rapier- If they were in their place(time of hand) They wouldn't have to step back to disengage. Now if they were a little closer than their place(like going into grips) I could see this, and this can happen very easy. This is why Silver said, "The just length of you sword, to be made according to your own stature". This way, if you get to close you can still uncross your sword and attack. For me anything 32" to 34" is good for my stature, 32" to 33" my preferred length.
John Clements book is out dated, I wouldn't recommend his book.
32" to 34" is a good blade. A lot of the Italian rapiers in the 16th Century were longer than 36", longer than the users stature made ideal. You can discover just what George meant if you can spar against a blade 36" or longer while you have one of about 32-33 Inches long. You should be able to hit your opponent before they are able to fully deal with their own disengage. John Clements book shows almost all the guards and attacks the side sword and rapier, and it is especially valuable in showing the difference between the two. If you have a book that is more current, I would love to add it to my library. Scott, is correct. Silver, never said he fought any Italian Masters. Silver says there were only three Italian instructors in England and only one of the tree were a master. On Wiktenauer, it says that he had some opportunity to fence with some students of some of the Italian masters on a few occasions. www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/George_Silver
I know pretty much what Silver means, I have been studying Silver since around 2007/2008(don't remember the exact date) and rapier around 2005. But what Silver says is a true sword, is different for everyone because not everyone is the same size. My training partner, short sword can have a blade that's around 35" to 37" and will be a true sword for him, because it's good for his stature. His sword would be a false sword for me because it's to long for my stature. This is the picture, Silver shows how to find a sword made for your stature.
Back in 1997 when John Clement"s book came out, the treatises weren't translated yet and John never translated a fight book in German or Italian. From what I have read and heard form others around that time was said, he just looked at the pictures and kinda did what SCA does with trial and error. If you read the original masters, you will know what I mean. I have both his books and I started out with them and they were one of the few books out there at the time and were very important back then because it introduced WMA to people like me, who only knew about Asian martial arts. There's a bunch of book I will link to you later for side swords and rapiers, but the kind of blend in to each other. The Italians, never distinguish between sword and rapier, like the English did, they just called all single hand swords, "spada" which translates to sword.
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Post by spearman on Feb 22, 2015 1:34:06 GMT
George silver never claimed to have killed any rapier teachers in either the paradoxes of defence or the brief instructions. He did say his challenge was ignored by one, Vincentio Saviolo from memory. Spearman, if you're after a more up to date book, try looking at www.freelanceacademypress.com/books.aspxAlso Guy Windsor's books are supposed to be very good. Thanks for that website. There are a number of books there. Which one did you have in mind as a more current book? I do like Clement's book, but it is not perfect. Not sure were I read about Silver killing rapier teachers. That would have been at least 6 months ago, and it is possible that I am not remembering what I read correctly, but it would have been a secondary rather than a primary source.
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Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
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Post by Razor on Feb 22, 2015 2:14:11 GMT
I just linked a bunch of books for you Spear man, and lost it when I posted it. Will try again later.
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