Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 0:12:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 0:12:56 GMT
I don't like show blades where function is impaired to make it pretty. Pretty without hurting function is OK, if you're into bling, but to make it functionally inferior in order to make it pretty is another thing. Of course, swordsmiths have been making too-wide hamons on Japanese swords for quite a long time, and other swordsmiths have been complaining about it. The classic complaint by Suishinshi Masahide, about 1800: www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html(Too narrow is not good either, since then it takes fewer polishes before you run out of hardened edge. Not so much an issue for lifetime due to polishing just for general sharpening, but more an issue for repolishing if you chip the blade, when much more steel is removed compared to just sharpening.) I don't like gaudy gold plating, fancy decorated saya, etc., which make the sword "pretty", and don't hurt function. While a too-wide gaudy hamon isn't as garish as such things, it does hurt function, unlike those. IMO, worse. Totally agree with Timo on this point! Once aesthetics are placed above functionality, it's no longer a real sword, but a functionally compromised 'art sword' , which defeats the purpose of constructing a sword in the first place, which is a functional tool first and foremost.
I don't think that is exactly what he was saying but even with this level of polish, a katana of this level will have no problem slicing limbs clean off. If you want a sword just for the sake of it buy any old piece of sharp steel. You to respect the craftsmanship regardless anyway here with quality nihontos. Can you define a 'functional sword' in this context? Do you mean clashing sword on sword like in the movies then thats not what I would do with any katana, which is a cutting tool.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 0:38:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 0:38:16 GMT
From what I understood, and what I know of swords, with differentially hardened swords, there is a functional balance between the amount of hardened edge relative to the more pliable sword body. Too much hardened edge and you end up with a brittle sword, not enough and you end up with a sword that can be sharpened much less times before it becomes useless. This is not an art matter but an engineering one, and there is an optimum tool design which is best fit for purpose to which the ancient Japanese adhered to when they depended on their swords for their lives.
Remembering that steel was very precious and expensive in ancient Japan, you wouldn't want a sword whose service life would be shorter than it could be due to a very shallow hamon. Just like everywhere else in the world, human life is always precious so you wouldn't want your sword failing because it didn't have enough shock-absorbing steel because of an overly deep hamon either. After the 400 year peacetime period when samurai just became idle aristocrats, and their swords were just expensive fashion accessories, much like a Rolex watch, at which point all of this didn't matter so much, with the rise of the 'art sword', it all became about 'pretty'.
When making a 'real' sword, functionality precedes aesthetics, but with the Japanese, creating art in the shape of a blade sometimes (not always) has priority. Japanese smiths aren't all the same and neither is their work. This is about the extremes where art is taken to a stupid level that compromises the blade as a functional tool. The purpose of any tempered sword edge is first and foremost to create a hard wearing and sharp cutting edge, the temper line pattern is superfluous and is just a craftsman's flourish showing what they can do with the steel. Depends if the goal is to create the best blade functionally or the prettiest blade.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 0:52:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 0:52:25 GMT
From what I understood, and what I know of swords, with differentially hardened swords, there is a functional balance between the amount of hardened edge relative to the more pliable sword body. Too much hardened edge and you end up with a brittle sword, not enough and you end up with a sword that can be sharpened much less times before it becomes useless. This is not an art matter but an engineering one, and there is an optimum tool design which is best fit for purpose to which the ancient Japanese adhered to when they depended on their swords for their lives. Remembering that steel was very precious and expensive in ancient Japan, you wouldn't want a sword whose service life would be shorter than it could be due to a very shallow hamon. Just like everywhere else in the world, human life is always precious so you wouldn't want your sword failing because it didn't have enough shock-absorbing steel because of an overly deep hamon either. After the 400 year peacetime period when samurai just became idle aristocrats, and their swords were just expensive fashion accessories, much like a Rolex watch, at which point all of this didn't matter so much, with the rise of the 'art sword', it all became about 'pretty'. When making a 'real' sword, functionality precedes aesthetics, but with the Japanese, creating art in the shape of a blade sometimes (not always) has priority. Japanese smiths aren't all the same and neither is their work. This is about the extremes where art is taken to a stupid level that compromises the blade as a functional tool. The purpose of any tempered sword edge is first and foremost to create a hard wearing and sharp cutting edge, the temper line pattern is superfluous and is just a craftsman's flourish showing what they can do with the steel. Depends if the goal is to create the best blade functionally or the prettiest blade. Yes all true but we arnt talking about the tempering process. We are discussing the effects the polishing has on the functionality of the blade from removing the steel to bring out the details. Having a thin hamon would leave too little a cutting edge after repeated polishing which I agree is not a good idea.
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 1:05:20 GMT
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 1, 2015 1:05:20 GMT
I was talking about the same thing as Suishinshi Masahide, namely that blades with wide hamons are more likely to break than blades with narrow hamons. The original question was "What do we like in hamon?" As I wrote, I like function, and don't like form at the expense of function.
Too wide is bad, because the sword is more likely to break. Too narrow is bad (but less bad), because it reduces the chance of successful repair after chipping and reduces the long-term life of the sword.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 1:18:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 1:18:22 GMT
I was talking about the same thing as Suishinshi Masahide, namely that blades with wide hamons are more likely to break than blades with narrow hamons. The original question was "What do we like in hamon?" As I wrote, I like function, and don't like form at the expense of function. Too wide is bad, because the sword is more likely to break. Too narrow is bad (but less bad), because it reduces the chance of successful repair after chipping and reduces the long-term life of the sword. Ah ok, got you. Having to much hardness will of course affect durability and too little will lose its longevity. Common sense really. Extra wide hamons on katanas are pretty hard to come by these days though right? I suppose we could get any modern reproduction forge to make one but then modern steels will play another part in the hardening process again.
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 1:24:15 GMT
Post by Cottontail Customs on Feb 1, 2015 1:24:15 GMT
I agree but think this is a very broad overview. What is too wide? What are the statistics or actual chances on any/every blade with a wide hamon snapping in two? I know it's more likely, but what does this mean in reality? How often do we send our $300 blades for full polishes? Theoretically, a hamon that is too wide or too narrow will have a higher chance of failure or early retirement but this isn't anything RinC should start worrying about imho Additionally, since swords these days are not being carried into battle there is a very large aesthetic factor to consider and many of us are buying swords to admire more than or as much as to cut with so not all of us need to have a hamon completely optimized for functionality only. The chances that a sword we buy for both will last a full life of admiring and cutting the occasional mat or water bottle. Yet another reason to buy more than one sword, lol -Josh
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 1:37:41 GMT
Post by Cottontail Customs on Feb 1, 2015 1:37:41 GMT
Two more beauties -Josh
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 1:43:26 GMT
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 1, 2015 1:43:26 GMT
The practical issue isn't a big deal, it's the concept of "Let's take away strength in order to make the blade pretty". Swordmaking involves compromises. Reducing toughness to get a harder edge can be OK, reducing strength to get a lighter and faster blade can be OK, but reducing toughness just to make it prettier? Ugh!
(Compare recommendations to not buy cheap damascus/folded steel because the chance of defects is greater. Though welding flaws in the folding don't translate into "more likely to snap" - bad welds can be "good" because they'll stop crack propagation.)
How wide is too wide? I've seen the advice that 1/3 width is good, but you don't want wider. I'm OK with much narrower than that (but I have DH blades I haven't polished or etched, so the evidence says I'm not that fussy about the appearance of hamons). 1/2 width is too much. Reaching the ridgeline is too much. Well, maybe OK on tanto.
Lamination can make a wide hamon less problematic. One could take a sanmai blade with thin centre plate and low carbon cladding, and just quench the whole thing. Hamon the full width of the blade! Shouldn't snap. And it does well with respect to repeated polishing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 1:46:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 1:46:14 GMT
Very nice pics. The others wouldn't load for me though. The topic definitely is much broader than this. Another thing I can say is that the bo hi also makes the blade weaker and susceptible to breaking in half but it's not something that would likely happen unless we are having sword duals with each other :)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 1:48:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 1:48:10 GMT
The practical issue isn't a big deal, it's the concept of "Let's take away strength in order to make the blade pretty". Swordmaking involves compromises. Reducing toughness to get a harder edge can be OK, reducing strength to get a lighter and faster blade can be OK, but reducing toughness just to make it prettier? Ugh! (Compare recommendations to not buy cheap damascus/folded steel because the chance of defects is greater. Though welding flaws in the folding don't translate into "more likely to snap" - bad welds can be "good" because they'll stop crack propagation.) How wide is too wide? I've seen the advice that 1/3 width is good, but you don't want wider. I'm OK with much narrower than that (but I have DH blades I haven't polished or etched, so the evidence says I'm not that fussy about the appearance of hamons). 1/2 width is too much. Reaching the ridgeline is too much. Well, maybe OK on tanto. Lamination can make a wide hamon less problematic. One could take a sanmai blade with thin centre plate and low carbon cladding, and just quench the whole thing. Hamon the full width of the blade! Shouldn't snap. And it does well with respect to repeated polishing. Ideal in theory but not necessarily the case. Laminated blades have microscopic flaws that make the chance of breaking even greater. No matter how good the welding flux can be done, physics still dictate that a kobuse wrap works better in practice. A kobuse lamination I put my money on would hold up much longer.
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 6:40:28 GMT
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 1, 2015 6:40:28 GMT
Lamination can make a wide hamon less problematic. One could take a sanmai blade with thin centre plate and low carbon cladding, and just quench the whole thing. Hamon the full width of the blade! Shouldn't snap. And it does well with respect to repeated polishing. Ideal in theory but not necessarily the case. Laminated blades have microscopic flaws that make the chance of breaking even greater. No matter how good the welding flux can be done, physics still dictate that a kobuse wrap works better in practice. A kobuse lamination I put my money on would hold up much longer. No, not more chance of breaking (where "breaking" means your blade ends up in two pieces). More chance of delamination, which is undesirable, but not a fight-stopper. As I said: (Compare recommendations to not buy cheap damascus/folded steel because the chance of defects is greater. Though welding flaws in the folding don't translate into "more likely to snap" - bad welds can be "good" because they'll stop crack propagation.) It really works. I've seen multiple blades with cracks stopped by lamination. I wouldn't trust a completely-quenched kobuse blade. I'd prefer to use a sanmai blade with a crack all the way through the centre plate than a kobuse blade with cracks through the sides of the cladding. There are historical examples of untempered fully-quenched sanmai, and they worked. Are there historical examples of untempered fully-quenched kobuse blades?
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 8:26:33 GMT
Post by cj7wheeler on Feb 1, 2015 8:26:33 GMT
"Depends if the goal is to create the best blade functionally or the prettiest blade"
I want at least 2 of each!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 8:34:51 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 8:34:51 GMT
I might briefly look at the pretty patterns in the steel on a sword blade, and that might impress me for all of two minutes, but I'm more concerned with how well the sword handles and cuts.
What I look for in a hamon is a well formed temper line that is evenly formed along the blade to provide a uniform hard cutting edge of sufficient depth, one that does not dip too shallow towards the blade's edge or too far up towards the spine. I look for a sword edge that is properly heat treated to have good edge-holding ability, the pattern of the temper line is superfluous to sword function.
A hamon (Japanese for 'edge pattern') is nothing more than a temper line that delineates the hard, brittle martensite that makes up the cutting edge from the more flexible pearlite that makes up the shock-absorbing body of the blade. Yes, sure you can make pretty patterns when you control the cooling rate by painting clay on the blade, and the hamon sometimes serves a bit like the swordsmith's signature, but beyond that, it's just hardened steel.
Different people have different values and subjectively placing value on patterns in tempered steel as art is a rather strange and historically recent Japanese preoccupation or fashion, but all manner of things are valued as art in various cultures, the strange thing here is that the Japanese chose a civilian dress sword to infatuate over as high art, while the western world looked to painting and sculpture. Each to their own...
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 8:43:02 GMT
Post by cj7wheeler on Feb 1, 2015 8:43:02 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 10:24:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 10:24:14 GMT
A hamon looks right on a katana, I'm sure about a hamon on a kukri though...
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 10:33:52 GMT
Post by randomnobody on Feb 1, 2015 10:33:52 GMT
I think I remember that one from Dig's post about lamination.
I also seem to recall reading somewhere that kukri will often have "unintentional hamon" as a side effect of the thickness of the blade versus the edge, similar to the so-called "ghost hamon" we've seen on various "through-hardened" swords. Only difference is kuks aren't polished to show a hamon, they're just polished enough to do their job. Same can be said for old seax blades, some have been polished to show hamon and lamination lines, but it's believed that these were never particularly "advertised" during the blades' service lives. Not like in Japan where showing every aspect of a steel's structure became the method by which a blade's quality was judged.
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 10:58:37 GMT
Post by Timo Nieminen on Feb 1, 2015 10:58:37 GMT
Traditionally, kukris are differentially hardened. Polish and etch, and you should get a hamon. Since they're deliberately differentially hardened, I wouldn't call it "unintentional", even though the intent is only to get a hard edge, not to get a pattern. Traditional kukri hamons I've seen are pretty narrow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 13:29:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 13:29:09 GMT
Blackthorn, can you elaborate a little on what "civilian sword" means in the context of a culture that had proscribed swords in excess of a certain length from anyone who wasn't a member of the warrior class?
Would you consider Peter Johnnson's work to be superfluous? There's a meticulous attention to detail and aesthetics that goes well beyond meeting the requirements of functionality at play there. Just curious.
|
|
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 13:57:29 GMT
Post by randomnobody on Feb 1, 2015 13:57:29 GMT
Traditionally, kukris are differentially hardened. Polish and etch, and you should get a hamon. Since they're deliberately differentially hardened, I wouldn't call it "unintentional", even though the intent is only to get a hard edge, not to get a pattern. Traditional kukri hamons I've seen are pretty narrow. From what I understood about kukris, the method is more of a selective drawing-back of the body rather than a deliberate differential hardening of the edge, but perhaps I'm remembering wrong, as I often do, or perhaps it's a case of different approaches to the same end. Either way, same effect.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
hamon
Feb 1, 2015 14:07:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 14:07:47 GMT
That makes sense, the hardened edge on a kukri should be narrow to provide a hard edge only, since the cutting targets of a kukri are things like solid trees, which would damage a sword, you'd need a large shock absorbing body. Having a brittle edge extending far into the main body of a chopping instrument used on hard materials would seem counter-productive.
Good point too about 'unintentional' hamons, the 'art sword' crowd miss the point of what swords actually are, tools for combat, and they similarly forget what differentially hardened edges are for, which is to create a harder cutting edge for efficient cutting and edge retention, not to make pretty patterns.
Considering that the Japanese couldn't even work out how to forge steel, and were taught how to by the Chinese, and considering that they were also taught by the Chinese how to differentially harden blades, it's laughable how differential hardening is spoken about from the perspective of the Japanese, when they were one of the last nations to catch on historically and all they did is make a fuss about it when they learned how to do it properly. It's like discussing a topic from the least significant perspective really...
From sevenstarstrading.com/site/2010/10/myths-about-chinese-swordsmanship/
"A method of heat treating used to produce blades with hard edges and softer, more resilient backs or centers was the differential hardening of a blade edge by using refractory clay mixtures. This technique (popularly known as clay tempering), made famous by Japanese sword smiths, originated in China in the early Tang dynasty (seventh century AD). This method was adapted by the Japanese during the Tang dynasty (618-907 AD). This differential hardening method involves using the refractory clay to insulate the back of the blade (thus changing the rate at which the steel cools), while exposing the edge during the quenching and hardening process. The radical temperature change at the edge produces a thorough crystallization of the carbon in the steel to make a hard edge while keeping the rest of the blade from becoming brittle. When done properly, this method produces a very hard cutting edge backed by a softer blade body, which retains the resilience to absorb shock. Though some Chinese sword smiths continued to use this refractory clay method well into the nineteenth century, it generally fell out of use by the Song dynasty (960-1280 AD). Henceforth, other methods of hardening were adopted, possibly due to Central Asian and Middle Eastern influences during the Yuan dynasty."
The Chinese were more concerned with performance than looks and didn't polish with stones to show the temper lines.
It's important for people to keep Japanese history in perspective rather make assumptions based on baseless romanticism that samurai strutted the battlefields with 'beautiful swords'. The Japanese originally produced straight temper lines but only very much later by the twelfth century Japanese smiths started producing irregular temper lines for decorative purposes.
|
|